Expecting the attention to detail in other parts of the world too

[Gurtannon]

I hope for a similar granularity for provinces and locations.
But tags granularity? Impossiblr, there is not enough sources to give HRE tag granularity to Americas and Subsaharan Africa in 1337.

What I hope for Americas and Africa is a consistent definition of what is a tag, what is a culture, what is a religion and what is playable and what is not playable. Also, I hope for good research, no fake cultures, fake tags or oversimplified things that we know to be wrong.

If they achieve finding population data for those people and plus entire world, then it couldnt be impossible to find or make up tribes based on research, culture or oral traditions of these people, I mean the unimportant tribes will have random chief and zero content anyways, so finding some patterns or mentions which may indicate the existence of tribes is definitely going to be easier than the finding the number of people lived in amazons or in australia in 1337

 

[karasis65]

I would rather to have more fps than having 1000's of obscure tags with little historical info in Americas and Africa. As for HRE, it is too important to not put in.

But when it comes to representation, that should be there for sure with provinces, cultures and religions on the map.

 

[Immortal Impi]

I hope for a similar granularity for provinces and locations.
But tags granularity? Impossiblr, there is not enough sources to give HRE tag granularity to Americas and Subsaharan Africa in 1337.

What I hope for Americas and Africa is a consistent definition of what is a tag, what is a culture, what is a religion and what is playable and what is not playable. Also, I hope for good research, no fake cultures, fake tags or oversimplified things that we know to be wrong.

Not necessarily true. We have enough information on Mesoamerica we can built an extremely complicated political map. You can refer back to the efforts of Mesoamerica Universalis on this score. A friend of mine also, sometime ago, did a map based upon contemporary research on the Mesoamerican Postclassical at the end of the Tepanec ascendancy and the collapse of Mayapan (for the sake of a forum game you can find here). Creating a similar map for 1337 would be challenging and complicated, but not necessarily impossible. And the advantage of historical cartography is once you've developed a map that shape stays until you improve it. Paradox can over time iterate and improve their Americas representation until it reaches a similar level of fidelity.

(To be clear, I think a lot of these tags would be merged on the actual map for EU5, but it's an example of how this task is *not* impossible).

 

[Thorum]

The fact that for most areas an adequate guess can be substantiated, does not change the fact that for some it cannot.

 

[Immortal Impi]

The fact that for most areas an adequate guess can be substantiated, does not change the fact that for some it cannot.

This is the basic reality for historical cartography in much of the world. The assumption that we just don't "know" enough about the Andes or Mesoamerica just isn't that true. Mesoamericanists know a huge amount and can outline individual tributary provinces and altepemeh. What is often an argument from objective ignorance is actually subjective ignorance - the ignorance of those who just haven't really done the research.

While I am supportive of consolidating these maps for the sake of gameplay, not representing these complicated fragmentary systems at all is just a disservice.

 

[Gurtannon]

I would rather to have more fps than having 1000's of obscure tags with little historical info in Americas and Africa. As for HRE, it is too important to not put in.

But when it comes to representation, that should be there for sure with provinces, cultures and religions on the map.

If engine cant handle more tag then of course there shouldnt be added but I am pretty sure the engine is strong enough such that it will be able to handle 10+ years of expansion and content after release, so yeah it should be able to handle more tag than needed honestly, and by your logic game should not have more mechanic after release since it will affect performance less or more

 

[pheonicia]

I think paradox already wants to move in the direction of more fidelity in underrepresented regions, after all remember when eu4 had a grand total of 5 American tags?

 

[Immortal Impi]

I think paradox already wants to move in the direction of more fidelity in underrepresented regions, after all remember when eu4 had a grand total of 5 American tags?

It used to be Maya, Zapotec, Aztec and I may be charitable in remembering there being a Tarascan tag.

This is just reinforcing the trends pdox is already doing. And tbh I am much more worried about the gameplay aspect than the map - the map can always be improved and iterated on but I feel like paradox has never really made a strong effort of capturing the actual gameplay of Mesoamerica or the Andes. The blood and doom mechanics were not good and the Inca mechanics were just bland.

 

[pheonicia]

It used to be Maya, Zapotec, Aztec and I may be charitable in remembering there being a Tarascan tag.

This is just reinforcing the trends pdox is already doing. And tbh I am much more worried about the gameplay aspect than the map - the map can always be improved and iterated on but I feel like paradox has never really made a strong effort of capturing the actual gameplay of Mesoamerica or the Andes. The blood and doom mechanics were not good and the Inca mechanics were just bland.

Was there ever a zapotec tag in 1.0? I just remember Aztec, Maya, Inca, Iroquois, and Huron.

 

[Immortal Impi]

Was there ever a zapotec tag in 1.0? I just remember Aztec, Maya, Inca, Iroquois, and Huron.

I think I am actually confusing it with EU3 here, I can't find screenshots of Mesoamerica in Divine Wind. I think there was a time when Tlaxcala was represented by an uncolonized province with 20000 high ferocity and aggressiveness natives so we've come pretty far :v

 

[Sapa Inca]

Not necessarily true. We have enough information on Mesoamerica we can built an extremely complicated political map. You can refer back to the efforts of Mesoamerica Universalis on this score.

Mesoamerica yes, maybe the Andes too. I really want Mesoamerica in the official game to have a similar granularity to Mesoamerica Universalis
But for the rest of South America and North America? Impossible, the majority of communities here are extremely hard to pin point at map in 1337.

What is possible to know is where cultural groups were located in 1337 (using oral tradition, linguistics and archeology), but more granularity than general location of cultural groups is very hard to know. Geopolitical divisions of chiefdoms, villages, bands and official forms o government are imposssible to know for the majority of the region, with a few exceptions.
What I hope for these regions is good province/locations granularity and good representation of the different cultural groups in the right geographical location. Mesoamerica and maybe the Andes are the exception for the rule, because here we have more historical sources.

 

[William the Merry]

This is the basic reality for historical cartography in much of the world. The assumption that we just don't "know" enough about the Andes or Mesoamerica just isn't that true. Mesoamericanists know a huge amount and can outline individual tributary provinces and altepemeh. What is often an argument from objective ignorance is actually subjective ignorance - the ignorance of those who just haven't really done the research.

While I am supportive of consolidating these maps for the sake of gameplay, not representing these complicated fragmentary systems at all is just a disservice.

When we have so few written contemporary sources, it is going to be harder to get an accurate and super granular for mesoamerica than it is for europe

 

[Gurtannon]

Not necessarily true. We have enough information on Mesoamerica we can built an extremely complicated political map. You can refer back to the efforts of Mesoamerica Universalis on this score. A friend of mine also, sometime ago, did a map based upon contemporary research on the Mesoamerican Postclassical at the end of the Tepanec ascendancy and the collapse of Mayapan (for the sake of a forum game you can find here). Creating a similar map for 1337 would be challenging and complicated, but not necessarily impossible. And the advantage of historical cartography is once you've developed a map that shape stays until you improve it. Paradox can over time iterate and improve their Americas representation until it reaches a similar level of fidelity.

(To be clear, I think a lot of these tags would be merged on the actual map for EU5, but it's an example of how this task is *not* impossible).

View attachment 1127258

This map is excellent if eu5 location size is suitible I hope all of them is represented

 

[viola]

It used to be Maya, Zapotec, Aztec and I may be charitable in remembering there being a Tarascan tag.

There wasn't.

Behold, the vanilla EU4 map (which is roughly the same as DW EU3, maybe with more North American tags)!

 

[pheonicia]

There wasn't.

Behold, the vanilla EU4 map (which is roughly the same as DW EU3, maybe with more North American tags)!

View attachment 1127272

I guess I was wrong, there were more than 5 American tags.

 

[Sapa Inca]

There wasn't.

Behold, the vanilla EU4 map (which is roughly the same as DW EU3, maybe with more North American tags)!

View attachment 1127272

The difference in details in North America vs South America when both continents had societies with a similar level of technology and organization is astonishing and unacceptable. I really hope for this bias to be fixed in Projec Caesar.

 

[Immortal Impi]

The difference in details in North America vs South America when both continents had societies with a similar level of technology and organization is astonishing and unacceptable. I really hope for this bias to be fixed in Projec Caesar.

To be clear there were a lot of improvements since then. I think Conquest of Paradise and El Dorado reworked the map significantly and there were more changes since. The general trend has been more provinces and better detail and see no reason for that not to continue in EU5. What I am really hoping for is a better system to represent non-state actors - "tribal land" was a furtive first step in this direction.

Here is the EU4 map right now:

 

[viola]

The difference in details in North America vs South America when both continents had societies with a similar level of technology and organization is astonishing and unacceptable. I really hope for this bias to be fixed in Projec Caesar.

If anything, Mesoamericans and Andean peoples were the leading, most advanced and urbanized civilizations in the Americas by far, as far as I know.

I think the big amount of North American tags are a vanilla UE4 thing. In EU3 I distinctly remember how it used to be Inca and Chimu in South America, the trio of Aztec-Zapotec-Maya in Central America, and then not more than 5 tags in North America: the Iroquois, Hurons, Cherokee, and then a couple more in the south near the Cherokees. Maybe Shawnee and Creek?

 

[Bauer Maggott]

Was there ever a zapotec tag in 1.0? I just remember Aztec, Maya, Inca, Iroquois, and Huron.

this is a map from the wiki from 2013. I am pretty sure those 10 american tags were there from the very start. But its still pretty obvious that in 10 years there was a lot of improvement in how detailed the americas are represented.

Edit: also other places of course

 

[Immortal Impi]

The really big problem with the way EU4's Americas map is there's really no sense or logic between what tags are represented and what tags are not. Large portions of North America are just depicted as uncolonized "x number of natives here" while their neighbors they historically fought with exist as playable tags. You really want a more developed system using something like a better version of the 'decentralized nation' system in Victoria 3 to represent the continent more accurately, IMO. This will also allow you to inevitable merge tags where it would infeasible research-wise to show them because we only have an idea of a broad number of nations that exist in the region or they weren't in a coherent unified entity like the Haudenosaunee league.