Expansion idea set

[darth254]

Expansion has been functioning as a poor man's hybrid of Exploration and Trade, yet hogs up an admin spot. so many of the ideas are putrid....the -10% recruitment time and -10% shipbuilding time for starters. the -25% state maintenance and finisher also seem underwhelming. I don't even think it has AE reduction in it excluding policies (the old finisher CB used to give this).

could this idea set be re-evaluated like Aristocratic was?

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

Agreed, I typically don't even take this as a hardcore colonizing nation.

It's honestly not a terrible group evaluated in a vacuum, but it just not worth taking compared to its competition in the admin idea groups. Outside of the Unit/Ship building times every idea is useful for a colonizer, it just doesn't have anything that will ever make it a must pick. Even Innovative has its amazing military policies to fall back on with other really nice bonuses like -WE, Tech Cost reduction and the great events it gets.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

It's a question of game style. As a colonizer, I always pick it, since it has the great synergy with exploration to add 20 colonial growth, with its own +10 that's a +30 and an additional colonist. With Castille's 4 colonists you can get all 12 colonial nations for yourself relatively early without going to war vs europeans, you just only need to take out Portugal early.
In a vassal feeding game the extra diplomatic slot also helps alot. And for powers that need to colonize key provinces without wanting to go exploration it's also a decent pick (I look at you, African corridors).
In comparison to other admin groups I find it better than Innovative or Economic. Since money is the most abundant ressource, every idea just saving money is questionable. Innovatives other boni are also offered by other groups, for example aristocratic and administrative and the really good Scientific Revolution only pays off when picked very early, as first or second idea. But then you lose other key groups when you desperately need them.

 

[Coffer]

One thing I've been wondering since I'm still newish to the game: is it also terrible for Norway? I'm torn on it, as their ideas certainly point towards exploring without actually taking Exploration, and eating Sweden and expanding in Europe isn't quite as easy as doing so with Denmark after cheesing them. However, they also strike me as the kind of ideas that recommend doing something on the mainland and leaving the actual colonization for later, as I've seen others point out, and even without that, the idea set as a whole is still kind of terrible.

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

I usually take it as colonizer, since it helps, but understand it's not great.

 

[Badesumofu]

The only time it is something you'd consider it is if your only goal is to colonise as much as possible yourself.

If you view colonies as a means to an end, then it is utter trash. It needs to be reworked.

 

[qwertzuiop]

One thing I've been wondering since I'm still newish to the game: is it also terrible for Norway? I'm torn on it, as their ideas certainly point towards exploring without actually taking Exploration, and eating Sweden and expanding in Europe isn't quite as easy as doing so with Denmark after cheesing them. However, they also strike me as the kind of ideas that recommend doing something on the mainland and leaving the actual colonization for later, as I've seen others point out, and even without that, the idea set as a whole is still kind of terrible.

I'd say it's also bad for Norway simply because Exploration offers much more when it comes to colonies and it is a DIP idea group while Expansion is an ADM idea group.

I've played Norway a lot of times and always opened with Exploration/Humanist/something else. Now I guess you could take Expansion together with Exploration if you really want to focus exclusively on colonizing everything as quick as possible. But taking Expansion instead of Exploration is definitely not a good idea.

As far as Sweden is concerned, it is possible to live in complete peace if you manage to become independent of Denmark while Sweden remains a subject. (Denmark will love you due to the "historical friends" modifier, and Sweden can't do anything as long as they are not independent). But that scenario also means that you'd have to take on both of them alone in your independence war. It also means that you'd have to take the province of Dalaskogen from Sweden in the peace deal (it produces a lot of copper) because else your economy will be too bad to sustain any kind of colonizing.

But in all other scenarios, you have to conquer Sweden anyway because they will not leave you alone otherwise. This is usually done before exploration starts. Denmark can be kept as a friend or conquered as well (if you care about trade money it should be conquered, if not then it's perfectly possible to live in peace. They can also help you against Sweden).

 

[Coffer]

I'd say it's also bad for Norway simply because Exploration offers much more when it comes to colonies and it is a DIP idea group while Expansion is an ADM idea group.

I've played Norway a lot of times and always opened with Exploration/Humanist/something else. Now I guess you could take Expansion together with Exploration if you really want to focus exclusively on colonizing everything as quick as possible. But taking Expansion instead of Exploration is definitely not a good idea.

As far as Sweden is concerned, it is possible to live in complete peace if you manage to become independent of Denmark while Sweden remains a subject. (Denmark will love you due to the "historical friends" modifier, and Sweden can't do anything as long as they are not independent). But that scenario also means that you'd have to take on both of them alone in your independence war. It also means that you'd have to take the province of Dalaskogen from Sweden in the peace deal (it produces a lot of copper) because else your economy will be too bad to sustain any kind of colonizing.

But in all other scenarios, you have to conquer Sweden anyway because they will not leave you alone otherwise. This is usually done before exploration starts. Denmark can be kept as a friend or conquered as well (if you care about trade money it should be conquered, if not then it's perfectly possible to live in peace. They can also help you against Sweden).

I'm surprised Exploration still works that well for them in the end, but I was probably giving too much importance to the sole wasted idea relative to all the other benefits. All the more reason to avoid Expansion then.

Regarding Sweden, in my test runs I've been fine so far when becoming independent together, as so long as they join me and later get Gotland and a bit more of Denmark while I get the rest they seem to be happy with what they can get, and I can thus divert my attention elsewhere (Scotland for instance) for a while. They seem to only start getting a bit antsy later, when I'm in a good enough position to stand my ground against them already. How do you manage to stay friendly with Denmark though? So far, every single time I've tried it the modifier was removed upon becoming independent, and if I could prevent that, I'd rather stick with them over Sweden even if it hurts my already meh economy.

To bring this back on topic, what could be done with the idea set to potentially make it more relevant?

 

[qwertzuiop]

Regarding Sweden, in my test runs I've been fine so far when becoming independent together, as so long as they join me and later get Gotland and a bit more of Denmark while I get the rest they seem to be happy with what they can get, and I can thus divert my attention elsewhere (Scotland for instance) for a while. They seem to only start getting a bit antsy later, when I'm in a good enough position to stand my ground against them already. How do you manage to stay friendly with Denmark though? So far, every single time I've tried it the modifier was removed upon becoming independent, and if I could prevent that, I'd rather stick with them over Sweden even if it hurts my already meh economy.

Okay, that works too, in my games I somehow had problems keeping Sweden on my side. As far as I know, the historical friends modifier can only disappear through a certain event that may fire when you fight a battle against them. Maybe I got lucky, but this event never fired in my independence wars against Denmark. (Also, of course I did not take any land from them directly if I wanted to have them as an ally).

 

[Coffer]

Okay, that works too, in my games I somehow had problems keeping Sweden on my side. As far as I know, the historical friends modifier can only disappear through a certain event that may fire when you fight a battle against them. Maybe I got lucky, but this event never fired in my independence wars against Denmark. (Also, of course I did not take any land from them directly if I wanted to have them as an ally).

Fair point, I'll try avoiding fighting their armies directly and not being a dick to them after the first war and see where that takes me. Maybe I was just lucky in those two longer test runs I did and Sweden really is supposed to start looking towards you very quickly more often than not.

 

[Horn and Ivory]

To bring this back on topic, what could be done with the idea set to potentially make it more relevant?

Here's a starting proposal: Instead of the reduced recruitment time, have a 'colonial militias' idea that allows you to instantly recruit functional stacks of troops in your CNs and overseas territory. I'd have been hesitant about such an idea in the past but the introduction of streltsy and janissaries which can be insta-recruited hasn't proved to be game-breaking. The militias can be recruited for, say, dip points, and if it's practicable to code they should refuse to go too far from their spawn area. Bam, immediately somthing useful, characterful, and distinctive to the group.

Suggestion 2: Increase the autonomy floor of trade company regions to, say, 25% or 50%. Have expansion ideas return that floor to 0.

 

[Jedras]

Here's a starting proposal: Instead of the reduced recruitment time, have a 'colonial militias' idea that allows you to instantly recruit functional stacks of troops in your CNs and overseas territory. I'd have been hesitant about such an idea in the past but the introduction of streltsy and janissaries which can be insta-recruited hasn't proved to be game-breaking. The militias can be recruited for, say, dip points, and if it's practicable to code they should refuse to go too far from their spawn area. Bam, immediately somthing useful, characterful, and distinctive to the group.

Suggestion 2: Increase the autonomy floor of trade company regions to, say, 25% or 50%. Have expansion ideas return that floor to 0.

First one is probably enough, since it would be really strong, especially for quick wars against natives. The old claim system would also strengthen it significantly

 

[ecrurudesby]

I suggested fixing them by removing them.

 

[Kryndude]

The set is a complete garbage at this point. It's a pure waste of valuable admin points to take it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's a question of game style. As a colonizer, I always pick it, since it has the great synergy with exploration to add 20 colonial growth, with its own +10 that's a +30 and an additional colonist. With Castille's 4 colonists you can get all 12 colonial nations for yourself relatively early without going to war vs europeans, you just only need to take out Portugal early.
In a vassal feeding game the extra diplomatic slot also helps alot. And for powers that need to colonize key provinces without wanting to go exploration it's also a decent pick (I look at you, African corridors).
In comparison to other admin groups I find it better than Innovative or Economic. Since money is the most abundant ressource, every idea just saving money is questionable. Innovatives other boni are also offered by other groups, for example aristocratic and administrative and the really good Scientific Revolution only pays off when picked very early, as first or second idea. But then you lose other key groups when you desperately need them.

Economic and innovative absolutely dumpster it in military policies. Expansion is a never-pick basically and definitely needs a look.

Those colonies are mainly giving you money too, and they are less efficient at it than economic or innovative (especially with +5 advisers), themselves outclassed groups in SP.

The only time I've touched it in the past several years was as a 50 point western tech custom nation in the new world, because the AI was colonizing too slowly and I wanted the achievement for owning all new world provinces. Outside that edge case, it's been a weaker pick than alternatives consistently. I've taken espionage more often in WC runs, though admittedly 7th for diplomat.

 

[qwertzuiop]

Actually what I find interesting is that Expansion got that -25% state maintenance after states and territories were introduced to make it more worthwhile, but then the number of possible states got severely reduced (and trade companies made stronger), making the bonus very weak. The value of idea groups always changes when new features are introduced, for example Expansion used to be a strong choice in the early days of EU4 because it gave you a CB on all of Asia and the additional merchant was valuable. Then, the special CB got removed and 1000 new ways to gain merchants were added.

The bonuses of this idea group should be updated to something that fits the current state of the game.

Suggestion 2: Increase the autonomy floor of trade company regions to, say, 25% or 50%. Have expansion ideas return that floor to 0.

I like this idea in particular because it would be really impactful and it could balance out some of the recent changes in the game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Expansion used to be a strong choice in the early days of EU4 because it gave you a CB on all of Asia and the additional merchant was valuable. Then, the special CB got removed and 1000 new ways to gain merchants were added.

That made it worth considering, and when it was still a DIP group even more so. The old expansion CB from a DIP group on trade company land would be extremely strong now and could beat out one of diplomatic/influence without much trouble.

But that's not the option in play unfortunately. Instead we get one of the weakest money groups in the game with lackluster policies and arguably the most neutered CB option in the game's patch history (even more so than deus vult in terms of relative nerf IMO).

 

[Robert de Bruce]

As far as Sweden is concerned, it is possible to live in complete peace if you manage to become independent of Denmark while Sweden remains a subject. (Denmark will love you due to the "historical friends" modifier, and Sweden can't do anything as long as they are not independent). But that scenario also means that you'd have to take on both of them alone in your independence war. It also means that you'd have to take the province of Dalaskogen from Sweden in the peace deal (it produces a lot of copper) because else your economy will be too bad to sustain any kind of colonizing.
.

I managed it to use Sweden as shield against Muscovy, they peaced out and stayed subject, my Norway became independent and could join HRE via Schleswig. (Didn't continue that run yet.)

Economic and innovative absolutely dumpster it in military policies. Expansion is a never-pick basically and definitely needs a look.

Those colonies are mainly giving you money too, and they are less efficient at it than economic or innovative (especially with +5 advisers), themselves outclassed groups in SP.

The only time I've touched it in the past several years was as a 50 point western tech custom nation in the new world, because the AI was colonizing too slowly and I wanted the achievement for owning all new world provinces. Outside that edge case, it's been a weaker pick than alternatives consistently. I've taken espionage more often in WC runs, though admittedly 7th for diplomat.

I realized I don't need massive military buffs, as long as I have good generals. I skip most of the often recommended military idea groups (never take defensive, started skipping quality, too) and I don't see the point for MIL policies, at least not if they buff the military quality.
And colonies give control over provinces with access to new expansion options, give many extra merchants and access to a lot of trading in "trade good" modifier. The earlier you reach this, the better.
But maybe I am also biased by the kind of runs I did lately, including African Power, Japan, Scotland and The Navigator.

 

[Bouchart]

The only thing Expansion has going for it is +1 colonist. Under most circumstances I'd rather go over the colony limit than take the idea group.

Expansion should have an idea that reduces the penalties from overextension. Seems like an obvious idea to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I realized I don't need massive military buffs, as long as I have good generals. I skip most of the often recommended military idea groups (never take defensive, started skipping quality, too) and I don't see the point for MIL policies, at least not if they buff the military quality.

MIL policies are more for either MP or convenience, but they matter because they push expansion down in MP priority too.

And colonies give control over provinces with access to new expansion options, give many extra merchants and access to a lot of trading in "trade good" modifier. The earlier you reach this, the better.

If you're taking exploration, you can do this with or without expansion with minimal variance in time to open new fronts. If not, you need to wait for DIP 6 to start stealing maps and 7+ for even decent range, and at that point the difference in time between "just expansion" versus "neither exploration nor expansion" is also small.

After taking exploration as say Portugal, you can throw a colony near Kongo and conquer that while using 2nd colonist on new world --> Mexico/Peru. You are then conquering Kilwa + CNs. At best, expansion is giving you an extra CN, but this is in lieu of 1000's of admin or the ability to expand outside of trade company provinces/Iberia decently until absolutism times.

Even if you don't no-CB vassal --> core adjacent after moving capital to Africa to get the navigator, exploration alone is plenty for that achievement going around Cape with time to spare.