Expanding trade

[Spaceception]

MORE IDEAS IN THE REPLIES (Threadmarked)

I like the trade system in the game, and I would really like if it were expanded to become a decent strategy, not just a filler job. I don't know how many of these are workable ideas, and I think I've mentioned some of these in other threads, but here's all of it in one post.

Jobs/Internal

• The first one I do remember making a post about, not just a comment: Giving Ecumenopolii "specialist" clerk jobs. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-clerk-job-on-ecumenopolii.1247474/
• Someone mentioned it could still be useful to have worker tier jobs, so instead, city districts (on Ecumenopolii) could be split half and half between workers and specialists. And, the upgrade for commercial zones could instead add a couple more clerks, a few "specialist" tier jobs, and a merchant job.
  
• Boost clerk jobs by some amount.
  
• Galactic stock exchange should be buildable on capitals (both core, and sectors), and (if possible) Ecumenopolii. They only boost trade value in that sector (or planet in the last case). And instead of 2 merchants, it could be 1, plus a couple specialist clerk jobs.
  
• There should be a trade planet designation, that among what other designations typically do, should boost planetary trade value by 5%
• There should be more trade policies and each sector should be able to have its own policy. The ones I was thinking about would be for food (0.5 energy - 0.75 food), rare resources (either all 3, or individually - 0.5 energy - 0.02/03 resources), and research (0.5 energy - 0.25/35 in all)

Other Empires

• Commercial pacts should open a trade route between you and another Empire (if you're neighbors). No bonus to trade value if it's a couple normal Empires, small if a megacorp, and moderate if a Federation. For the last two, these would take whatever your core policies were respectively, or just do the pure energy one (and boost value across your empires for whatever policies you have)

Dealing with routes

• Right now, I'm at the stage of the game where you need a decent fleet to keep piracy suppression under control. Now, I'm also at the point where no pirate fleet is anywhere close to a threat, but it is eating into my trade value. So if I ever go to war, or when the crisis arrives (which requires more ships for my main fleets, which my piracy fleets would be busy biting into), it's just going to get annoying. Especially if any of these changes makes it into the game - raising your routes trade value, and making it harder to manage.
  
• So, I'm proposing two new ship classes: Merchant frigates, and Merchant cruisers. Merchant frigates are unlocked by a tech between corvettes and destroyers, and the Merchant cruisers are unlocked between destroyers and cruisers. These have fewer weapon slots than their regular counterparts, can only be within an Empire's borders (or another Empire so long as its within a route), and has lowered upkeep/naval cap (cap can be 1/2 the cap of corvettes and destroyers). And they have 2 and 4 times the piracy suppression of corvettes respectively, requiring a smaller, less resource intensive fleet for the same suppression.
• Hanger bays should get 3 level bonuses, lining up with each strike craft tech. Hanger bays automatically "level up" when you get a new strike craft tech, but the piracy suppression stays the same. Now, tier 1 does 10 like now, tier 2 raises it to 20, and tier 3 raises it to 30/40 + a range of 2.

EDIT 2: Furthering my (personal) ideas for Merchant ships

• You should have the ship designer open to them, so you can make specific designs that can double for piracy, and defense (not whatever the auto is). Because while they can't exit your empire outside of a route, they still have weapons, and hence, could be useful in a pinch.
• Frigates could have 2 small slots, and Cruisers could have 3 medium slots, and (maybe) one special (PD/Strike/G), or small slot. There could be an Aux slot for both too.
  
• In the outliner UI, I could see this getting its own section between fleets and civilian ships. This way they don't clutter your normal fleets or anything.

Other

• Merchant guilds gives added base protection
• There could be more bite with piracy later, especially if you (with other empires), or the mercenaries can meddle with it.
• There could be events while your fleets enter a system with high piracy, usually where you can get free resources, capture an Admiral, or gain mercenary ships (if you get them involved as above), even the chance to force spawn a pirate fleet to reset things.
• Let us draw up our own trade routes, which could be helpful. EDIT 2 As for drawing your own routes, auto ones are still fine, but you should be able to change if it isn't ideal for you.
  
• Allow us to upgrade/repair Merchant fleets without canceling the automatic patrolling at the same time (this is a small but mighty annoyance, especially when you have a lot of stuff going on, and forget)
• Add more interactions with caravaneers regarding trade.

Anyway, that's all I have. I'll edit if I have more ideas. EDIT 1/3 - changed the effects of the research/rare resource policy to be viable. Added the note to repair fleets w/o canceling patrolling

 

[DukeLeto42]

Dealing with routes

• Right now, I'm at the stage of the game where you need a decent fleet to keep piracy suppression under control. Now, I'm also at the point where no pirate fleet is anywhere close to a threat, but it is eating into my trade value. So if I ever go to war, or when the crisis arrives (which requires more ships for my main fleets, which my piracy fleets would be busy biting into), it's just going to get annoying. Especially if any of these changes makes it into the game - raising your routes trade value, and making it harder to manage.
  
• So, I'm proposing two new ship classes: Merchant frigates, and Merchant cruisers. Merchant frigates are unlocked by a tech between corvettes and destroyers, and the Merchant cruisers are unlocked between destroyers and cruisers. These have fewer weapon slots than their regular counterparts, can only be within an Empire's borders (or another Empire so long as its within a route), and has lowered upkeep/naval cap (cap can be 1/2 the cap of corvettes and destroyers). And they have 2 and 4 times the piracy suppression of corvettes respectively, requiring a smaller, less resource intensive fleet for the same suppression.
• Hanger bays should get 3 level bonuses, lining up with each strike craft tech. Hanger bays automatically "level up" when you get a new strike craft tech, but the piracy suppression stays the same. Now, tier 1 does 10 like now, tier 2 raises it to 20, and tier 3 raises it to 30/40 + a range of 2.

Also, I'd like patrol settings to spread piracy prevention across the entire span of the patrol (so they move back and forth, but you don't have the problems of piracy going above prevention values because it takes just a bit too long for the fleet to move 3 systems' distance).

There could be more bite with piracy later, especially if you (with other empires), or the mercenaries can meddle with it.

Perhaps an option like "fund privateers." You could boost piracy values and pirate fleet spawn rates in the empire. It could generate a small amount of local threat (mostly just annoying that empire and any of its allies). You could even have it require sending admirals to do this, rather like EUIV diplomats (for that matter, you could send generals for planetary "support dissidents" operations as another way to undermine another empire).

 

[Spaceception]

A few more things

An Admiral should have some extra trade suppression dependant on their level, being a percentage so it scales. This could also be further increased by "secure shipping" on the Diplomacy tree.

Resource silos could be upgradable, going from 2000 storage, and 2 clerks to being 4000 storage, and 5 clerks. Though whether the upgrade carries a rare resource upkeep is up to the devs.

On Pirate fleets, they just become flimsy in the late game. Why can't they be larger, and why can't their rewards scale later? Since they steal trade value, it'd be nice if you got a lot of those resources back based on your policy. And if you could salvage their fleets for a few hundred/thousand alloys. Getting a couple hundred energy/minerals is like pocket change in the mid/late-game

EDIT: Clerks typically produce 2 trade value (which is probably a bit higher than the base, since I'm xenophile right now). And if a trade policy is producing 0.15 or 0.25 food, then it isn't turning much of a profit. So it would need to raised to be viable.

 

[Spaceception]

Even more things.

Trade deposits could be richer in value and/or in systems with habitable planets. This way you don't have any stray trade value doing nothing. And the +10% mining station output techs/tradition should apply to those as well.

Special buildings like the alien zoo could add a passive modifier to trade value on planets, and even a clerk job. There could also be new special modifiers for this as well.

Resort worlds should get one of these modifiers, I think it could be great for them. But it would only affect the planet, not your Empire at large.

During a war, you should be able to interrupt a trade route, and steal whatever resources they're producing. Even blocking it entirely from reaching a planet after taking the starbase. It could be a diminishing return over time, but you would get something out of it.

Hyperlane Registrars could give some sort of bonus to increase protection/suppression if they're in a system along a trade route.


And in the long-term for making these mechanics work with other systems in the game, I'm also wondering if different government types or factions could have an effect on any of this. Like what trade policy they'd prefer for the core sector, or if some policies could be stronger for some than others (a low hanging fruit would be a boost on the research policy for materialists).


I also edited the policy effects (again) for the research and food policies. I think 0.25/35 in research, for example, would let it make a decent impact even in the early game, and be strong enough to carry into the game later.

 

[DukeLeto42]

A few more things

An Admiral should have some extra trade suppression dependant on their level, being a percentage so it scales. This could also be further increased by "secure shipping" on the Diplomacy tree.

Resource silos could be upgradable, going from 2000 storage, and 2 clerks to being 4000 storage, and 5 clerks. Though whether the upgrade carries a rare resource upkeep is up to the devs.

On Pirate fleets, they just become flimsy in the late game. Why can't they be larger, and why can't their rewards scale later? Since they steal trade value, it'd be nice if you got a lot of those resources back based on your policy. And if you could salvage their fleets for a few hundred/thousand alloys. Getting a couple hundred energy/minerals is like pocket change in the mid/late-game

EDIT: Clerks typically produce 2 trade value (which is probably a bit higher than the base, since I'm xenophile right now). And if a trade policy is producing 0.15 or 0.25 food, then it isn't turning much of a profit. So it would need to raised to be viable.

Definitely a fan of the resource silos and the point on pirate fleets. Perhaps pirate fleets should grow over time to reflect the trade power they're actively stealing if unchallenged? That way a brief oversight won't result in a major threat, but as the piracy levels drain larger and larger amounts of wealth they could grow to major threats.

I'm not sure about admirals giving extra trade suppression, not because it doesn't make sense but because when you need to change admirals you might suddenly discover the fleet is woefully inadequate and need to suddenly reinforce, rather than the normal process of steadily growing trade defense fleets as trade value grows.

 

[DukeLeto42]

But for regular fleets, when your really good Admiral dies, doesn't it just drop the power by a few thousand at most? Maybe it could be a similar thing. Admirals will give you a nice buff so you don't need more ships for a while, and give more suppression. But at the same time aren't strictly required, or will cripple your suppression badly if you lose them.

Sure, but I don't need active admirals all the time, so chances are they don't die when I'm actually at war (unless of course I'm a genocidal empire, but that's another matter).

It would be nice to take some ships off-duty, but it would probably be much better if we could mothball vessels so having a more efficient admiral felt like we were really reducing our military overhead.

 

[Tamwin5]

Definitely a fan of the resource silos and the point on pirate fleets. Perhaps pirate fleets should grow over time to reflect the trade power they're actively stealing if unchallenged? That way a brief oversight won't result in a major threat, but as the piracy levels drain larger and larger amounts of wealth they could grow to major threats.

I'm not sure about admirals giving extra trade suppression, not because it doesn't make sense but because when you need to change admirals you might suddenly discover the fleet is woefully inadequate and need to suddenly reinforce, rather than the normal process of steadily growing trade defense fleets as trade value grows.

This is a quote from a thread about pirate republics.

This suggestion would first need the addition of a ship section to the galactic market, where you could sell ships. Price automatically determined by strength and such.

When you have pirates in your trade lanes, they keep track of how much TV they have stolen. Once they reach a certain point, they start buying ships off of the GM. When they finally pop up as a hostile fleet, they get an extra amount of current pirate style vessels equal to the amount of ships they were able to buy, effectively doubling their fleet.

Once the pirates are in system, they get ALL the trade value passing through. This amount, plus a base value from their home base(~10), can be used to buy more ships from the market. The ships would stay in orbit of the home base until enough had been bought to form a fleet, and then it could move out and take another system.

There should also be a mechanic for the pirate base to 'level up' as it reaches certain thresholds for trade value captured after it has spawned. 200, 1000, 5000, say. Every upgrade would be a significant upgrade in health, firepower, and passive income generation for the pirates. Higher level pirate bases would also be able to build pirate-class ships.

 

[Spaceception]

EDITs to some values.

Alright, some numbers on what I'm thinking. I don't know if it's well balanced (probably not), but I wanted to add some values here, some changed. Along with how much total they produce now, and what I propose.

All will be base amounts, not affected by modifiers. So this could get decently higher if you're Thrifty, Xenophilic, or what have you.

Clerks: 4 trade value, 3 amenities EDIT: Maybe 3 TV, 3 amenities

Spoiler: Policies

• Wealth creation: 3.2 energy (which is almost as much as a technician). 0.8 energy per trade value here. EDIT Or 1 ec per TV for 3 TV.
  
• Consumer benefits: 2.6 energy, 1.4 CG (workers would make a profit here) 0.65 energy/0.35 CG EDIT or 1.95 ec, 1.05 CG
  
• Marketplace of ideas: 2.6 energy, 1.4 Unity, EDIT or 1.95 ec, 1.05 Unity

Proposed

• Food: 1.4 energy, 2.6 food (workers would make almost half the food as a farmer) 0.35 energy/0.65 food
  
• Research: 2.6 energy, 1 research (all fields). 0.65 energy/0.25 research
  
• Strategic resources (a maybe policy, and should be for individual resources, with the others locked if it happens): 1.4 energy, 0.04 resources. 0.35 energy/0.01 resources

Specialty clerk (don't have a name): 6 trade value, 4 amenitie EDIT Maybe 5 TV, 4 amenities

Spoiler: Policies

• Wealth creation: 4.8 energy EDIT or 5 ec
  
• Consumer benefits: 3.9 energy, 2.1 CG, EDIT or 3.25 ec, and 1.75 CG
  
• Marketplace of ideas: 3.9 energy, 2.1 Unity EDIT, or 3.25 ec, and 1.75 Unity

Proposed

• Food: 2.1 energy, 3.9 food
  
• Research: 3.9 energy, 1.5 research per field
  
• Strategic resources: 2.1 energy, 0.06 resources

Merchants, no change: 8 trade value, 5 amenities

Spoiler: Policies

• Wealth creation: 5.6 energy
  
• Consumer benefits: 5.2 energy, 2.8 CG
  
• Marketplace of ideas: 5.2 energy, 2.8 Unity

Proposed

• Food: 2.8 energy, 6.4 food
  
• Research: 5/2 energy, 2 research
  
• Strategic resources, 2.8 energy, 0.08 resources

The passive gain could be changed too, but I'm not going to touch on that.

I'm also thinking that, because this is a massive boost (clerks produce 2x the trade value now), it could really unbalance the early game in terms of resource generation. Right now, a Commercial zone gives 5 jobs, 10 for the upgrade. I'm thinking it could instead produce 4 jobs instead. 6 for the upgrade + 2 specialty jobs (Or 7 + 3, giving a nicer boost). Right now, if all clerk jobs are filled at the beginning, you're going to have 10 TV (not counting passive TV, or modifiers, which I believe raises it between 25-30 at the start for non-Megacorps), which gives you 10 energy, or 5 energy and 2.5 CG/Unity.
With this as the new system, your starting trade value increases to 16, giving you 12.8 energy, or 10.4 energy and 5.6 CG/Unity. Now that I think about it, you're more encouraged to take a dual trade policy, unless you're really strapped on energy.

At 100 trade value total, you're looking at 80 energy. Or 65 energy and 35 CG/Unity. Which isn't bad I think. Not as great as your typical jobs though. But I (stress on think) this is almost at the point where you could reasonably devise a strategy where you can rely on at least 1-3 resources through trade, letting your other pops focus more on the rest.

Oh, and any ideas for Trade Leagues? I don't know how it could work with this. Can it be the optional (or automatic) policy for your core sector? Does it get boosted to 1.6 energy, and 0.35 CG/Unity, or stay the same as now? Can members choose one optional policy I propose that adds to that?

 

[Spaceception]

It's been a while, but I got some general thoughts. This does add some of what the above discussion suggests.

Jobs

• To integrate trade into the Civilian economy more, let clerks, farmers, entertainers/duelists, culture workers, and civilian fabricators produce x amount of trade value (clerks could produce the most, others could make like 1-2). This alone would sizably increase the resources from TV.

Planets

• Give planets a stockpile for food and CG (amenities can still be per planet), boosted by the silos, if pirates hijack a route, your planets won't starve. And there could be policies that give some extra food to fill these silos, or break even.

Routes

• Food and CGs (as a start at least) are now auto transported along trade routes to planets with a deficit. This increases piracy. If cut off in a war, your planets will depend on the stockpile

Ships

• Might need a cruiser class ship to help with increased trade boosting piracy. And some more tools to help make sure your fleets are adequate and along the right regions.