Expanding ship combat roles: some ideas

[Tamwin5]

Currently, ship combat roles (determined by the computer) are a little.... bland. +10% Evasion, +20% Tracking, etc. So inspired by This post [https://old.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/abdh2h/change_combat_roles_to_have_greater_strategic/], and working with the author, I present a proposal for another slot in the designer: Roles.

Roles would add another layer of depth and fleet specialization. Many of these roles were designed to encourage mixed compositions of ships, or to add flavorful ways of being useful not directly in combat. Every role will not be useful to every empire, and that is intended. AI personalities would likely have a set of "preferred" roles it uses for it's ships as well. Any requirements for a role are put in parenthesis. All (non Titan) bonuses are small but stacking, so that you don't just dump one ship with it in a fleet.

Note: I also added the idea of having a second type of Titan, Carriers. Instead of a Perdition Beam, Carrier Titans would have a number of strike craft bays, complemented by small weapons and point defense. This would best be paired with fixing strike craft, and adding back in Fighter/Bomber differentiation.




Corvettes
These nimble raiders are adept at contesting enemy supply lines and pursuing fleeing vessels. Seeks to exploit weakness wherever they can find it.

• Blockade Runner: Adds blockade runner strength to adjacent friendly systems, lowering enemy surface bombardment strength and lessening Raider/Bandit ship effects.
  
  
• Hunter Killer: Increases fleet pursuit strength which lowers the chance of a enemy ship successfully disengaging from a fight.
  
  
• Raider(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Adds raiding strength to nearby enemy systems, lowering the resource production of orbital stations and increasing repair times.
  
  
• Drone(Machine/Synth): Lower energy maintenance but lower disengagement chance
  
  
• Screen: Has a chance to "intercept" a shot targeted at a Cruiser, Battleship, or Titan, taking the hit instead.
  
  
• Lazarus Protocol(nanobots): When Destroyed, chance to come back at 1 HP after Battle. Passive hull regeneration up to 50% of maximum.

Destroyers
Steadfast escorts vessels that protect the fleet and provide logistical support.

• Escort: Increases fleet disengage strength, improving the chance of a friendly ship retreating from a fight.
  
  
• Sentinel: Adds patrol strength to nearby enemy systems, increasing their protection against piracy and Raider/Bandit ship effect. Doubles trade protection.
  
  
• Stealth(Enigmatic Engineering): Only appears on enemy map sensors if in a system with one of their stations/vessels?
  
  
• Coordinator: Small bonus to Tracking to entire fleet.

• Subspace navigator(new tech:Subspace Mastery): Decreases jump drive cool down for fleet

• Bandit(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Steals 2 enemy trade value that passes through the system, giving it to your nearest Starbase. (This is also useful in peacetime if you split an enemy’s territory in half.)

Cruisers
Backbone of any campaign, these military vessels are strong and versatile.

• Relentless: Can repair in orbit without the need for a station.
  
  
• Aegis: Faster fire rate in systems with a friendly colony.
  
  
• A Thousand Cuts: A small percentage of Corvettes damage pierces shields and armor.
  
  
• Breaker: Bonus Damage against Starbases and Defense Platforms. Starbases captured repair faster. Repairs slower.
  
  
• Keshiks(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Increases fleet admiral skill gain. Gets greater bonus from admiral skill level.
  
  
• Brigand(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Significantly increases Piracy in adjacent enemy system, even ones with no trade value.

Battleships
The most powerful tool of any navy. Slow and expensive, these advanced war machines solve problems with direct firepower.

• Conqueror: Increased Fire Rate in claimed enemy systems.
  
  
• Phalanx: Increased Hull Points and decreased disengagement chance for Cruisers in fleet. (note: the increased hull should more than counteract the disengagement.)
  
  
• Guardian: Increased FTL Charge time outside of friendly territory. Increased Fire Rate in friendly territory. Increased hull in system with friendly Starbase/Bastion.
  
  
• Martyr: Grants a Fire Rate Bonus to all other ships in the fleet when destroyed.
  
  
• Boarding parties: Very Small chance that ships killed by this will be captured (captured ships have all empty weapon and utility slots, and thus must be retrofitted into a useful design.)
  
  
• Pillager(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Gain Consumer Goods from Bombarding Planets

Perdition Titans
The ultimate power of the stars, capable of destroying an entire Battleship with a single shot.

• Honor and Glory: Gain Unity for every ship killed by this fleet. Losses of this fleet gives half normal War Exhaustion.
  
  
• Gateway: Counts as a friendly Gateway (Titan may not travel through itself)
  
  
• Apotheosis: Triples XP gain for both Admiral and ships. Both gain xp slowly over time.
  
  
• Starstrider: Titan gains large speed boost, large Hyperlane charge time reduction for fleet.
  
  
• A Good Day to Die: When destroyed, all ships in this fleet deal direct hull damage to a (nearby?) enemy (proportional to size of ship destroyed). Halves Disengagement chance.
  
  
• Spoils of War(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): Gain a percentage of the Alloy/Material cost of any ship destroyed by this fleet, and 50 minerals for destroying Mining/Science stations.

Carrier Titans
Massive decks, hangers, and launch tubes to launch as many ships as there are stars in the sky. The strategic and logistical heart of any stellar super-power.

• Advanced Landing Craft: Doubles the planetary bombardment of fleet against unshielded worlds. This fleet ignores the planetary bombardment Cap (limited to just one fleet. If two fleets with this bombard the same planet, only the larger one will be used).
  
  
• Ackbar's Trap(new tech:Subspace Mastery): The Titan has an FTL inhibitor.
  
  
• StarForge: Fleet can repair or upgrade anywhere. Bonus to hull and armor regeneration for all ships in fleet.
  
  
• Shield of the Fallen: Massive bonus to ship Disengagement for other ships in fleet.
  
  
• Flag of the People: +20 Happiness, +50% Governing Ethics Attraction to all Friendly Planets in any System this Titan is in. (Modifier stays at half strength for short period afterwards)
  
  
• Treasure Fleet(Despoiler/Nihilistic/Criminal Enterprise): When Bombarding Planets, steal half of all resources produced there.

---

There were a few other things we discussed, such as giving some ethics/governments/Ascensions a slightly more powerful version of a few of these abilities. Militarist gets a better Conqueror or Honor and Glory, Hiveminds get Boarding Parties changed to Infestation, Authoritarians get a better Screen while Egalitarians get a better Escort. These extra bonuses should be small, just enough to give a gentle push in that direction without feeling mandatory or OP. Overall though, I felt that they weren't necessary, and the balance/flavor on many weren't good enough, so I decided to not put them all here.

Any thoughts, feedback, or ideas is greatly appreciated. Also if anyone really wants to make this a mod, you have my full permission to steal (With credit to me and TzarBucks).

 

[Jiav]

some nice idea, to be fair i believe lots of players would already be statisfied if they would add just more fit options to the current ship types...

"apocalypse" the first DLC which focused on warfare, didn't really do anything expect titans and colossus

 

[Tamwin5]

some nice idea, to be fair i believe lots of players would already be statisfied if they would add just more fit options to the current ship types...

"apocalypse" the first DLC which focused on warfare, didn't really do anything expect titans and colossus

Fit options? Are you talking about combat computer, or hull choice?

 

[permeakra]

As of now, they could add options like the last MoO did. Where I could teach the corvette-sized ship to stay at range and launch missiles from relative safety. This could help smaller ship to stay relevant.

 

[Jiav]

Fit options? Are you talking about combat computer, or hull choice?

talking about weapon fits

 

[Tamwin5]

talking about weapon fits

TBH, outside of niche stuff (like dark matter beam from Null Void portal), I don't think more weapons would be super interesting. Laser/Plasma/Neutron Kinetic/Autocannon/Artillery and Missle/Torpedo/Swarm seems to be a good spread of weapons. Yes, some things (like strike craft/missiles/Point Defense) could use with some tweaking and fixing, and I'd personally like Fighters and Bombers to be differentiated again, but I don't think we need a whole new set of weapons. More variety is not automatically more interesting.

 

[Tamwin5]

As of now, they could add options like the last MoO did. Where I could teach the corvette-sized ship to stay at range and launch missiles from relative safety. This could help smaller ship to stay relevant.

I think Combat computers should determine in-fight behavior. That said, there is room for a few more options. Having "Skirmish" Corvettes/Cruisers, which stay at long range (80) Lobbing missiles would fill the role you wanted. How about a Cruiser or Destroyer covered with Small Weapons, which dives into the thick of the fighting alongside corvettes?

Given more thought, I'm sure a number of new unique behaviors for combat could be found, and I think they would make a good addition.

 

[Coconut_Cookie]

I think combat would benefit the most from a tactical layer on which the player has only indirect control and more logistics for the player to worry about. The main principle for me is that the combat with roughly equal numbers and tech should result in a draw most of the time if the battle takes place on equal terms (enviroment factors). The only exceptions should be (semi) rare occasions when admirals outskill their opponent or just luckily use the right tactic (if battles were more like how land battles work in other paradox games). I know this has been somewhat adressed with the emergency jump so ships jump away when they are about to be destroyed but this makes wars largely come down to who wins the first battle.
For all of this to work though it's essential that the ai uses the same strategies and tactics, but also would be able to fight defensively if it can't win offensively. As it is right now the ai will always try to attack a fleet or place were it knows it can win. This means that 'choke' points are only used effectively by human players, if an ai knows it can't win a war it won't try to set up an optimal defence in those systems. Also all ai's fight exactly the same with the only difference be their preferred weapons.

To elaborate on these points:

Sending a fleet to the other side of the galaxy shouldn't be a something that is done on the fly and should take preperation. Campaigns that are done with less preperation should be less effective. For example they could introduce support ships or intergrate land forces within naval tactics. Let players use their armies to set up temporal supply bases on dead worlds. For this to work armies should also have dig-in bonusses and ground battles without air support should take a long time to win. Also maybe ship and army experience could be something that increases and declines depending on the number of academies you have, if their was a way to send them on practice, generally how discipline works in Eu4. But this could also decrease if you have been at peace for a long time, simulating people retiring from your forces with experience thus declining.

Missles have never been really usefull or good in the game other then the very early game. So why not make them very powerfull but give them a limited use give ships only a limited amount of them. Just like how ships need to repair their armour now. At the same time maybe the defense for missles could be limited as well in the form of anti missles. This would give huge benefits for empires who fight defensively near their supply bases.

Combat is still too deadly for ships maybe their weapons should have optimal ranges instead of just maximum ranges (this could also helps the balance between bigger and smaller weapons). Ships also manage to focus their fire to easily this quickly gives the side with a slight numerical advantage the means to steamroll their opponent. When ships get damaged maybe their effectiveness should decrease simulating sub systems in ships getting damaged. Maybe fleets could have different formations which you can choose from, giving a battleship a wing of picket ship destroyers that will always stick with the capital ship they're supposed to screen. Have combat be in fases like in HOI or any other paradox game, design a bunch of tactics of which admirals semi randomly choose one (some of them are counters to eachother) depending on their skill level. These tactics could be in the from of long range bombardment or maybe kamikaze attacks or maybe the admiral will try to go straight for the support ships.

To summarize stellaris lacks any real sort of strategy other then use 'choke' points, which the ai doesn't use properly. Battles should be more predictable when the numbers are somewhat evenly matched on equal terms, namely it shoud be a draw in most cases. The only exception could be an admiral taking a good decision or setting up a superior strategic position (better location for enviroment bonusses, better supplied forces, better trained forces). Of course for everything I propose the main condition for it to work is for the ai to be able use it fully. The only tactics that you have at your disposal is to choose where to fight (which the ai doesn't fully utilize) and the only strategies you have are: ship design, admiral choice and military doctrine. This is by no means a way to 'fix' the combat but I feel the combat in stellaris is lacking compared to other paradox games and misses some 'grand strategy' elements.

 

[permeakra]

How about a Cruiser or Destroyer covered with Small Weapons, which dives into the thick of the fighting alongside corvettes?

Ugh. That's already a thing, it's what "line" and "picket" behavior results in.

The problem with artillery ships (which should be an option for ANY ship with long-range weaponry) is that they don't actively maintain the distance. Smaller ships, like corvettes and destroyers, could outrun heavier ones and use high evasion to avoid clumsy long-range weapons. This would add options.

MoO4 had many flaws, but its space combat and ship designer are brilliant and should be stolen by any space strategy that can afford it.

 

[Coconut_Cookie]

Ugh. That's already a thing, it's what "line" and "picket" behavior results in.

The problem with artillery ships (which should be an option for ANY ship with long-range weaponry) is that they don't actively maintain the distance. Smaller ships, like corvettes and destroyers, could outrun heavier ones and use high evasion to avoid clumsy long-range weapons. This would add options.

MoO4 had many flaws, but its space combat and ship designer are brilliant and should be stolen by any space strategy that can afford it.

That is why I propose fleet formations and tactical movement based on admiral decisions to further define ship behaviour, and to create a practical basis for fleet behaviour. Right now ships don't fight in a group but rather individually together, they only move together and focus their fire. Picket ships still rush in to a certain distance instead of screening the capital ships they are supposed to attack. Swarm computers let's ships just rush in, instead of letting them rush in when it would make sense namely when the opponent is already softened up by long range bombardment to minimize losses. Right now the cambat is still defined by who has the bigger number, this is fine when the difference is big but even a small difference can easily cascade in one side dominating the other.

 

[Tamwin5]

When ships get damaged maybe their effectiveness should decrease simulating sub systems in ships getting damaged.

This is actually already a thing. I think it's currently a linear scale to 50% effectiveness at half health.