Excellence of v1.07

[unmerged(548)]

1) The bad-boy value should not rise for nations of the same faith in wars against infidels.
2) The bad-boy value should not rise from taking a province or two as a result of a defensive war.

Your missing the point royally here !

The badboy value has been put in becourse without it powermongers went for conquest of the entire world. The patch was made to prevent this and it was not 'socially' acceptable to just 'take a province or two' in those days either. Take money instead and you will be both historically correct and not get a higher badboy value.

3) The bad-boy value should improve quicker than it does now.

So you can annex more provinces faster? See above comment.
Set the game to less aggreesive or manually edit your savegames, It's your choise. You can do this without having the game destroyed for every body else, it's suppoesd to be historical you know... (even with the latest patch I'll bet you it's easyer to conquest in the CG then it ever was in the BG).

4) The bad-boy value should be visible to the player so that he knows when he needs to ease up.

On this I agree, you should have some idea about how disliked you are by the rest of the world.


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/ Stefan Huszics <A HREF='http://members.nbci.com/huszics/

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[Syt]

I agrre that there should be a way to judge how high your bad boy value is. However, I am not in favour of it being reflected by a numeric value, or a slider bar, or an icon. It would be better if it were reflected in how other nations act/talk to you, so you have to draw your own conclusions. This would add to the uncertainties nation leaders had - is my annexing the two provinces too much for others to take? Or will they not mind and let me convert those heathens? And also don't forget that diplomacy and international relations hardly ever were straight forward but rather corteous, treacherous, and concealing. It is always important to let your opponents in the dark about what you really plan to do.

 

[unmerged(703)]

Originally posted by Huszics:

4) The bad-boy value should be visible to the player so that he knows when he needs to ease up.

On this I agree, you should have some idea about how disliked you are by the rest of the world.

Now I get confused ???

So this value is different from the relationship (200 to -200) ???

How do you get this working if you don't have a chance to improve it with gifts, weddings etc ???

I have to got or played the 1.07 yet, but I get more and more confused how this really works.

Example:

I am attacked. I take win and take three provinces. Because I take three provinces another country attacks me. I take three more...... And so on....
Defending your self was hardly a crime at that time, was it ???
If I get a peace, what I have done wrong ??

This might mean that if I don't have a large standing army, then I get attacked. Draft fast and beat the attacker and suddenly me, the peaceful and humble peasant is pointed out as the world wide threat for the existance of humanity !!!! And the only thing I wanted was to brew my beer, fish my fish and trade with foreign countries.......

*Going to get some more gunpowder before starting EU*

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*

 

[daboese]

Just some responses:
The 'badboy' value has a deficiency in one point to me: You cannot play 'half- way agressive'. All countries will declare war on you then once they think they can do it, and as a certain country you simply then go further. I have a game now where I conquered almost all of Europe BECAUSE of this value and the AI handling it. If I feel that one country is *almost* equally strong, I will accept white peace with some of them and destroy the others.
What happened to Russia historically was that in reality the states had a sense of the 'balance of power' and formed alliances that way. In the game, there is not such a balance between strong alliances (and my alliance partners suffer severely from everyone declaring war on me). Moreover, why do you think the countries have the CB shields? If you take a province with YOUR CB shield on it, it shold not increase the badboy value that much- however if you take another- then it should.
On another note, if it was not socially acceptable to take provinces, simply make a province cost three stars- but then make less populated provinces cost two (and in America, for example one).
Concerning the money- I would like to get money instead of provinces for a won war, but did you ever try it? And then did you GET the money the AI actually accepted to give you???????????????????

 

[unmerged(658)]

Bmollson, this patch was trying to prevent the 'i got attacked so now im gonna annex you' type of playstyle. That is completely ahistorical, it would have upset the balance of power in Europe and the other countries wouldnt have allowed it. Maybe try just taking 1 good province and money or just money after a victory.

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Just My 2 Cents
Regards,
Brendiaz

 

[daboese]

Money? How did you get money out of those guys? I always asked for it, but I always got about 2 gold coins (or whatever the currency is) from the countries that I conquered (and they agreed to give me 250 or more)!!!

 

[unmerged(658)]

Daboese, whats probably happening is that althought the comp is promising 250, its only got like 2 in its treasury, so thats all you get. im not sure on this though, does anyone have a definite answer?

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Doomdark:
6) In my latest game, all of the Netherlands' provinces were in successful revolt for dozens of years, yet Holland never declared independence. Could be a bug.

In all my games so far with the latest patch I've seen the Netherlands become independent exceptionally early. I have seen what you're describing in a previous game, though. I think it's just the random possibility that the Netherlands won't form from the Dutch Revolt regardless of the revolt's short-term success.

daboese & brendiaz,
When AI countries agree to give money during peace negotiations, they give no more than the amount of gold currently in their treasury, which can be far below the amount promised in peace negotiations. A human player, on the other hand, can only offer money for peace if that player actually possesses the amount of money being offered. It's something of a bug that needs to be fixed.

 

[unmerged(658)]

thanks dark knight, thats what i thought it was . I do agree that this should be fixed, the player should know the amount of money in the enemies treasury, so the player can know how much he/she will get.

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Just My 2 Cents
Regards,
Brendiaz

 

[daboese]

That's exactly what I meant: An agressive AI player attacks me, I have to use tons of money to defend myself, and all I get is about 2 gold coins from him because he does not have any money. And then, you guys tell me- Well, why didn't you take money instead of land??? I AM already always taking less land than I have stars left, but still my 'badboy' value increases like hell even if I take only one province. Furthermore, in events I cannot even steer (like the quite seldom heritage of the throne event), this value increases!

 

[unmerged(543)]

well i am still waiting for the Swedish patch so i havent tried the 1.07 version yet. but I wonder why the badboy value has so much impact on the game? I believe that the problem is mior that nations can have a -200 relation to you for 275 yrs and never declaring war on you. I agree that if a nation starts to annex large parts of europe the other nations would get _very_ wary and this additional setting should impact the game too, just not as much as the diplomatic value. but I disagree with the idea that they shoukld be more prone to actually declare war on the powermonger. I would rather see that they upgrade their border fortresses to max. that they build quality armies to retaliate and enter into alliances a _lot_ more and always honour the alliance if powermongers declare war . The effect would be that if a nation starts to annex areas, all his neighbors will upgrade their fortresses, build up their armies and ally against him, and if he declares war, they will all aid each other. The badboy value should ponly increase the wardeclaration chance if the nation is _arleady_ at war, backstabbing can be fun! and no nation with 100+ relation should do this, but on the other hand, none of the neighbors would be that high, would they?
well this is just my opinion...

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Arngrim

 

[daboese]

Other countries can be at +200 with you and they will declare war!

 

[Syt]

Originally posted by daboese:
Other countries can be at +200 with you and they will declare war!

Yes! I ensured myself the 'good will' of France which owned Milan and Mantua before I annexed Venice in an effort to raise my income to more effectively fight the religious unrests in Bohemia which I had ennexed 12 years before. I had +200 with France and they declared war a few days after annexing Venice. Well, this led to a dirty war where I had a hard time fighting the Rebels and the French, esp. since my allies didn't care to intervene. Austria lost the Venice province and turned a Lutheran country, deeming all alliances with the pope and Spain to failure. So, don't rely on having +200 diplomacy!

 

[unmerged(548)]

whats probably happening is that althought the comp is promising 250, its only got like 2 in its treasury, so thats all you get. im not sure on this though, does anyone have a definite answer?

Yes, this is exactly what is happening. Either try to make peace very quickly, while the enemy still haven't spent all his ducats buying troops and/or in january when he has just recived his yearly taxes.

A human player, on the other hand, can only offer money for peace if that player actually possesses the amount of money being offered. It's something of a bug that needs to be fixed.

That is somewhat incorrect. If you get a peaceofferning by another country they will also just get/ask for what you currently have in the treasury. IOW it depends on who offers the peace. I however do agree that it should somehow be known if you will get 2D or the full 250D (which at least I get fairly often).

...before I annexed Venice in an effort to raise my income to more effectively fight the religious unrests in Bohemia which I had ennexed 12 years before.
This powermonging is EXACTLY what the patch is supposed to stop, annexing 2 of the largest minors in the game in just 12 years !!!
You are NOT supposed to be able to conquer the world.
THIS IS NOT CIV, so don't complain when you can't play it as CIV.

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/ Stefan Huszics &lt;A HREF='http://members.nbci.com/huszics/

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[This message has been edited by Huszics (edited 29-01-2001).]

 

[unmerged(703)]

Just another angle of the 'everyone declare war on me' thing...

A just as natural thing would be to have everyone want to ally up with YOU.... When you get powerful, they should start flirting with you.....

I don't know if you can attack an ally, but in case you are allied with half of the world it's not so easy to attack them....

The result would be that you attack and get 3 provinces before peace and so does your allies...... Your allies grows in the same speed as you and will give you a run for your money when you decide to change side......

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*

 

[Gerkleck]

I believe the patch is a big improvement. Conquering is no longer a peace of cake. Even if you conquer provinces very slowly (1 every 10 years) the rest of the world is not very pleased. IN my game two countries have the badboy sign on their head, one a computer nation (France). This is the first really interesting game playing a major country (Poland) since the first. Ending wars for white peace or only for small coins is now an option!
I love this patch as now it is really interesting playing a trading or balance of power (spoil all annex wars of the big boys) nation. The only bad part is that some countries attack you even if it is a disaster for them (all other countries out of the war, alone against the juggernaut). This never happend from the big countries with own ai, only smaller nations do this Therefore, I will now add some more ai for minors.

 

[daboese]

Yes, but I would like the AI to be aware of itself as well. As it has been said before- France likes to play as a badboy as well, with its value being far higher than the player ones, but the other countries are far away from teaming up against it- they JUST declare war on the normal player if he plays the 'conquer the world' style. Moreover, diplomatic annection and especially the throne inheritance event (I inherited for example the throne of Sweden with Hannover, and now EVERYONE wants war with me ) are too heavily penalised.

 

[Doomdark]

Your missing the point royally here !

The badboy value has been put in becourse without it powermongers went for conquest of the entire world.

I am missing the point royally, am I? I was one of those who clamored for firmer AI action against aggressive nations. Aggressive is the key word here. Nations that declare wars and annex other nations are aggressive. Nations that defend against predation are not.

The patch was made to prevent this and it was not 'socially' acceptable to just 'take a province or two' in those days either.

There is no clear rule to say when relations were upset due to expansion, especially not when that expansion resulted from a successful defense. There was of course fear of seeing one nation grow too strong, but that cuts both ways; A small nation successfully weakening a stronger neighbor should usually be well loved by the rest of Europe. However, declaring war for poor reasons was definitely not well received in the courts of Europe.

Take money instead and you will be both historically correct and not get a higher badboy value.

It is not always possible to take money in EU since the AI nations are usually unable to pay up. If not for that, I would do it much more often.

3) The bad-boy value should improve quicker than it does now.

So you can annex more provinces faster? See above comment.

I am afraid you are missing the point royally. With 1.07 the badboy value decreases much too slowly, with the result that if you reach the critical threshold the AI nations will pound you to dust or be annexed trying. Have you even tried the game with 1.07?

it's suppoesd to be historical you know... (even with the latest patch I'll bet you it's easyer to conquest in the CG then it ever was in the BG).

Yes, it is supposed to be historical, but it is not supposed to be history! Of course it is easier to conquer in the CG; everything is easier in the CG. The CG offers a much greater range of possible strategies than the BG because it is not shackled so tightly to the rack of history.

/Doomdark

 

[unmerged(658)]

Also, in relation to the CG being easier than the BG, of course it is!! In the BG you're playing against other humans, while in the CG you're playing against the AI. No AI yet can be a human, unless it cheats heavily. Now when Paradox gets the multiplayer running smooth we'll see a whole new and tougher type of play.

 

[unmerged(543)]

I agree that the expansionist tactic needs to be hampered in a major way! _But_ I feel taht instead of relyiong so heavcily on this new value, countrieas should instead take more into consideration the diplomatic values! I mean that they should ally against the powerstate. the powerstate should be aware that the other nations hate him declaring war with +200 is just rediculus! but seriously as a friend of mine mentioned, the problem is really that the CG is different from the BG in one major area, and that is that the BG does not allow _any_ capital to be annexed, with two exceptions: Russia and the Turks are allowed to annex minor nation capitals. What!? I hear you scream, they are allowed to annex anyone? Yes, but you must remember that the minors are _much_ tougher in the BG, it is a lot more damaging to your nation to declare wars in th BG, and no state may EVER take more than three provinces, wich makes the game a _lot_ more balanced! and there are a few events that allow other nations to annex capitals as well, most notably the three divisaions of poland, but these are all exceptions, niot the rule and this does make the game more interesting IMO.