What it means is that if a province has 100 energy and the infra is at 70% you'll get less then 100 energy. The provence only yields it's set value (100) at 100% infra. I believe that's how it works.
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What it means is that if a province has 100 energy and the infra is at 70% you'll get less then 100 energy. The provence only yields it's set value (100) at 100% infra. I believe that's how it works.
At 0 infra you get 75% efficiency
100 infra is 100% eff
200 infra is 125% eff
10 levels of 10 infra is lacking gives:
100-(2,5*10) = 75
Cant go lower than 75% due to Infra
EMU'ed, have to type faster ;-)
A quick test shows that 1 RR in province gives 1% reduction to IC and resources. Time to garrison high IC provinces in UK and Russia. Awesome game this...
100 infra is 100% eff
200 infra is 125% eff
10 levels of 10 infra is lacking gives:
100-(2,5*10) = 75
Cant go lower than 75% due to Infra
EMU'ed, have to type faster ;-)
A quick test shows that 1 RR in province gives 1% reduction to IC and resources. Time to garrison high IC provinces in UK and Russia. Awesome game this...
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I ran some tests myself to see whether or not building any infrastructure is worth it when one looks at IC.
In short : It's not.
The pay back period for 1 infra structure in a province with less than 6 IC is 4 years for one with 6 IC and almost 20 years for one with 1 IC. It's infinite for a province with 0 IC.
If you look at Germany: You need your industrial build up to pay off before 2 dates: August 39 and May 41. This means a window of opportunity of 1320 days to Danzig and 1950 days to Russia. A factory build in Berlin will produce 2.178 IC a day with appropriate policies and ministers and tech which can be attained around may 1936 (not the tech one, that will take a tad longer). Infrastructure in Berlin (which means it's probably the best modifier one is going to get) amounts to 0.9IC/day. The factory build will pay for itself in 688 days after being build or 988 after building commences , the infra will pay itself back in 351 days after building or 667 days after building commences. However since the factory is producing 2.178 IC and the infra only .9, it only takes the factory around 3 months to out produce the effect of infra, and after that the factory only becomes more attractive. This is under the best possible infra conditions, with Berlin starting out with 19 base IC!
Basically: The best way to go about things is 2 runs of IC in half your provinces and 3 in the other ones. This means that most of your IC will pay itself back before Danzig, you will have enough IC to commence building of units way when the 2 run streak runs out and you can still get a little extra for invading the USSR.
Infra should only be build for strategic reasons and/or increasing the output of resources in provinces that have them in abundance. 1 more infra means 2.5% more resources so that might come in handy in some cases. Too bad, I had hoped I could use some infrastructure in my IC build up for Germany.
In short : It's not.
The pay back period for 1 infra structure in a province with less than 6 IC is 4 years for one with 6 IC and almost 20 years for one with 1 IC. It's infinite for a province with 0 IC.
If you look at Germany: You need your industrial build up to pay off before 2 dates: August 39 and May 41. This means a window of opportunity of 1320 days to Danzig and 1950 days to Russia. A factory build in Berlin will produce 2.178 IC a day with appropriate policies and ministers and tech which can be attained around may 1936 (not the tech one, that will take a tad longer). Infrastructure in Berlin (which means it's probably the best modifier one is going to get) amounts to 0.9IC/day. The factory build will pay for itself in 688 days after being build or 988 after building commences , the infra will pay itself back in 351 days after building or 667 days after building commences. However since the factory is producing 2.178 IC and the infra only .9, it only takes the factory around 3 months to out produce the effect of infra, and after that the factory only becomes more attractive. This is under the best possible infra conditions, with Berlin starting out with 19 base IC!
Basically: The best way to go about things is 2 runs of IC in half your provinces and 3 in the other ones. This means that most of your IC will pay itself back before Danzig, you will have enough IC to commence building of units way when the 2 run streak runs out and you can still get a little extra for invading the USSR.
Infra should only be build for strategic reasons and/or increasing the output of resources in provinces that have them in abundance. 1 more infra means 2.5% more resources so that might come in handy in some cases. Too bad, I had hoped I could use some infrastructure in my IC build up for Germany.
Imo that numbers don't look too bad. I used to make a 2 year run of IC as germany, but in AoD it is much larger to get the ressources I need to run that moloch. Infra giving a ressource bonus was a thing I always missed in vanilla - and with this you can drasically improve the german situation, thanks to ressource heavy provinces in the Ruhrgebiet area.
I am playing my first game atm, have to find a new build order, but as far as i can see, I will include more infra in my next game.
I am playing my first game atm, have to find a new build order, but as far as i can see, I will include more infra in my next game.
That tells me Infra is VERY worth it to boost your IC for the top provinces. 4 years is the brerak even time for Factories aswell, so basically you just proved Infra is better then factories for any province with more than 6 IC.
Also you can't downrate infra because it produce less then a factory...
OFCOURSE something that costs only 1/5:th as much won't be better :S
The fact that Infra in Berlin produce 41% as much as a factory for only 20% of its cost should tell anyone that the investment of Infra in berlin slightly more then twice as good as an investment of IC (And that is before you even take its effect on supply & resources into account). Any sane person would build both though, because off the effects off synergy.
Edit: For a fair compairson you should compare 1 Factory in Berlin with how much you gain from putting infra in you five top IC cities.
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Break even point for a factory is a little more than 2 years after being build no matter what province you build it in.
Even in 6 ic provinces the payback time of infra is 4(!) years and it only provides .9 IC for every day it's used as compared to the 2.1 of a factory. So factories pay back for themselves quicker AND are way way way more productive (a factor 2.x) for every day they are in use.
So no, infra does not hold up
No its most certainly NOT.
Buildcost 5 IC for 360 days.
Yield: 1 IC per day.
With an average of +50% IC from modifiers thats 1.5 IC per day, and it will take 1200 days to return the investment = 3.33 years (with good modifiers, as germany at the start its only +15%).
Besides your missing the point. It doesn't matter if a factory is 2.x times more productive when it costs 5.0 times as much to build!!!
The productivity weighted for investment then becomes roughly 0.5.
Im not trying to say you should only build Infra btw, both and a balanced investment are needed to get the best effect.
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I was indeed wrong with the 2 years, it should have been 3
Other than that: It's not me who's missing the point: A factory costing 5 times more to build has NO bearing here at all!
A factory costs 1500 IC days to build. A infra around 316. Say we have a province of 6 base IC : 1486.37037 days for the infra to pay itself back, from the moment you click on the build button (0.27 IC per day), 1078.816199 days for the factory (1.926 IC per day). By the time the infra paid back for itself, the factory already gave you a plus of 408*1.96 IC= roughly 800 IC days! And after this the difference between the plus from infra and factory only rises: Seeing as infra will only give you the .27 a day and the factory will give you 1.96 a day!
This does not even include the fact that infra takes ages longer to build in provinces other than plains and urban
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Why does the investment cost have no bearing? Are you also arguing that all light ships and infantry are useless because Battleships and tanks defeat them 1vs1?????? :S
Since you can afford to build 5 Infra instead of 1 Factory thats what you should be choosing between right?
If you only could choose between either IC or Infra I would understand, but thats not the problem. Building IC will make your infra work better and building infra will make your IC work better, so together they are stronger then alone.
Also remember that resources are more valuable then IC in many cases, and resources get alot more then 25% boost from 200% Infra.
In many situations you will need to build Infra to afford running those factories at all.
5 infra = 5*.27=1.35>1.9
and that's assuming all the infra is build in 6 ic provinces.
ps:
and resources get a 2.5% bonus from every level above 10 infra.
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Im pretty sure they get more then that. Ive been able to increase my resource income in some provinces by 55-85% by going to 200% infra instead of 100%.
Alex, hold your horses. Infra gives max increase of 25% resources, the rest is probably from IC. Remember, BOTH IC and Infra increase province IC and resources with the same percentages.
200 infra and 50 IC gives a 75% increase to BOTH the province IC and the province resource. (for IC its the number in the parentesis that counts, not the one first seen in the province window)
Berlin -36 as example (base):
19 IC
100 Infra
12 metal
24 energy
11 rares
IC and Infra gives 119% eff
results are (current usable):
IC 19*1,19= 22,61
metal 12*1,19= 12,85
energy 24*1,19= 25,7
rares 11*1,19= 11,87
Increase Infra with 10 and you will see a 2,5% increase to 121,5%
Increase IC with 1 and you will see a 1% increase to 120%
Increase both and you will see a 3,5% increase to 122,5%
Tested and is correct ingame, in some cases there are rounding errors but they are not important. If anyone can find a case where this isn't true in a 0 RR core province i want to see a screenshot to believe it.
200 infra and 50 IC gives a 75% increase to BOTH the province IC and the province resource. (for IC its the number in the parentesis that counts, not the one first seen in the province window)
Berlin -36 as example (base):
19 IC
100 Infra
12 metal
24 energy
11 rares
IC and Infra gives 119% eff
results are (current usable):
IC 19*1,19= 22,61
metal 12*1,19= 12,85
energy 24*1,19= 25,7
rares 11*1,19= 11,87
Increase Infra with 10 and you will see a 2,5% increase to 121,5%
Increase IC with 1 and you will see a 1% increase to 120%
Increase both and you will see a 3,5% increase to 122,5%
Tested and is correct ingame, in some cases there are rounding errors but they are not important. If anyone can find a case where this isn't true in a 0 RR core province i want to see a screenshot to believe it.
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Can´t the modifiers be neglected for the comparison between the two investments ? They do affect both of them alike, don´t they ?
Based on the base cost of both investments (360 x 5 IC for Factory, 360 x 1 IC for Infra) the calculation is fairly simple:
One Factory costs 1800 IC days and gives 360 IC days/year, paying itself off in five years.
One Infra costs 360 IC days and gives 0,025 (2,5%) x 360 x IC [Local] IC days/year. In order to pay itself off in five years, this must equal 360 IC days / 5 years = 72 IC days / year.
So: 0,025 x 360 x IC [Local] = 72 or IC [Local] = 8 .
That means one Infra built in a province with 8 local IC will pay itself off in exactly the same time as a factory. So Infra built in a province with more than 8 local IC should pay itself off quicker than a factory, making it a better investment.
Modifiers shouldn´t affect this result as long as they affect both investments alike. If that is really the case I don´t know, though.
Based on the base cost of both investments (360 x 5 IC for Factory, 360 x 1 IC for Infra) the calculation is fairly simple:
One Factory costs 1800 IC days and gives 360 IC days/year, paying itself off in five years.
One Infra costs 360 IC days and gives 0,025 (2,5%) x 360 x IC [Local] IC days/year. In order to pay itself off in five years, this must equal 360 IC days / 5 years = 72 IC days / year.
So: 0,025 x 360 x IC [Local] = 72 or IC [Local] = 8 .
That means one Infra built in a province with 8 local IC will pay itself off in exactly the same time as a factory. So Infra built in a province with more than 8 local IC should pay itself off quicker than a factory, making it a better investment.
Modifiers shouldn´t affect this result as long as they affect both investments alike. If that is really the case I don´t know, though.
If I had only read the above before i started counting.
Same for me, building 1 IC cost the same as building 5 levels of infra (50 infra)
(Infra is 100 at start, modifiers are the same for both so totally neglectable. In hill or mountain building IC is way better due to the extra buildtime on infra)
If the province has 8 or less IC its better to build IC
If the province has 9 or more IC its better to build Infra (and you have atleast 5 such provinces to build in simultainously)
And infra gets better with time as it can have gearing if you build series!
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There is also the effect of supply efficiency. IC gives TC (which affects maximum supply efficiency), infra increases local supply efficiency. I don't know what effects infra level in provinces leading to supply depot have, but even without the maths the result is simple: now both IC and infra are useful and more related to each other. It's a huge improvement over standard HOI2.
BTW do airports and naval bases have any effect on supply efficiency? If yes, then it's even better, as infrastructure as a whole becomes more important...
BTW do airports and naval bases have any effect on supply efficiency? If yes, then it's even better, as infrastructure as a whole becomes more important...
It seems like some people are totally biased one way or the other :rofl:
I think the point I made in one of these threads a while back is that it is worth building infrastructure only in high IC providences. There are a lot more math than I can't do, but things like the way bonus percents work, build time for that providence, etc. all factor in.
In a providence like Berlin, build infrastructure! The line is blurred a lot more when it comes to a providence like Dortmund that takes a lot longer to build infrastructure and base IC is only 5. Of course, with the high resources in this providence I would build 3 factories here before Danzig making it 8 IC. However, the infrastructure wouldn't be finished before 1947. Worth it? Someone would need to do the math...
While I am not sure, it seems like a providence that has a IC of between 6-8 and good terrain would be ideal for infrastructure. However, this did show that it might not be worth boosting infrastructure build speed unless it is under 100 percent.
I think the point I made in one of these threads a while back is that it is worth building infrastructure only in high IC providences. There are a lot more math than I can't do, but things like the way bonus percents work, build time for that providence, etc. all factor in.
In a providence like Berlin, build infrastructure! The line is blurred a lot more when it comes to a providence like Dortmund that takes a lot longer to build infrastructure and base IC is only 5. Of course, with the high resources in this providence I would build 3 factories here before Danzig making it 8 IC. However, the infrastructure wouldn't be finished before 1947. Worth it? Someone would need to do the math...
While I am not sure, it seems like a providence that has a IC of between 6-8 and good terrain would be ideal for infrastructure. However, this did show that it might not be worth boosting infrastructure build speed unless it is under 100 percent.
Sorry for "necromancing", but I didn't notice this thread three weeks ago. There is really good reasoning here, even if the approaches of both theories are different which makes their results little comparable. However, we can formulate a rule of thumb that 8 base IC is the "break even point" of Infra compared to IC. Such easy rules are generally a good thing, even though they often oversimplify things...
Btw, since most players build infra at triple cost, the math should be done for some of those investments, too. Resources should be taken into consideration, as well as TC and repair speed (which saves a lot of ICdays and thus is a major benefit of infra).
Gaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
(See my signature)
Btw, since most players build infra at triple cost, the math should be done for some of those investments, too. Resources should be taken into consideration, as well as TC and repair speed (which saves a lot of ICdays and thus is a major benefit of infra).
Gaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
(See my signature
)
That's only if you need the IC to build things. The true payoff of extra IC is increased TC load.