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Cavalry

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Could you give me a link to what you're referring to?

Well, I cannot find it again. This diary is HOI3, but it still applies. So the original design is AT will pierce medium tank division but not Heavy. And previous HOI4 broke it by introduce xp boosted armor so medium tank cannot be pierced by AT. Still if you need it badly you can race by research AT gun tech 1-1.5 year in advance.
--------
Now for Armour/Piercing. All tank type brigades, and armoured cars, now have an Armour value, and all land combat brigades, plus a few support, now have an Armour Piercing value. Whenever an Armoured unit is in combat any unit attacking it must test their Piercing value against its Armour: If its Armour is higher the unit takes half damage from their attacks and does increased Org damage. If the Piercing value is equal or higher than the Armour then there is no effect and combat proceeds as normal. Both Armour and Piercing work by checking the best value in a division, it is not averaged. As a rough rule of thumb, at equal tech levels Light and Medium armour cannot be Pierced by Infantry, but will be by Anti-tank brigades, while Heavy armour will not be. Armoured cars, on the other hand, will not normally have any advantage over Infantry unless they have a couple of tech levels over them. This means there is now an arms race between Armour and Armour Piercing weapons, both between tanks and AT/tanks, and should make AT units more useful as well as offering some more advantages to Heavy and Super Heavy armour units.


 
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Kanitatlan

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You also need to remember that the actual purpose of the armour / piercing rules is to prevent players from ignoring anti-tank weapons and using pure soft attack to defeat tanks. It wasn't until HOI4 that you could have ridiculously high hardness divisions and before that simply deploying lots of soft attack was perfectly adequate for defeating armour. Taken along with the HOI3 issue of the supremacy of attack this meant that you always wanted to deploy virtually all of your manpower with the best soft attack weaponry you could give them and then only deploy armour if you had spare industrial potential you wouldn't otherwise use although there was always a strong argument to just build bombers with anything spare.

The armour / piercing rules fixed the above issue so that if you neglected fighting tanks they would mess up your army. HOI4 generally fixed the other issues. With armour / piercing carefully balanced to generate certain relationships we then developed new problems with, as @Corpse Fool says, modifying armour with XP kind of messed with the balancing and now the tank designer has made it even worse.

It is fairly obvious that a graded penetration vs armour arrangement is the solution and no doubt sooner or later this will get implemented. The real question is whether the Paradox team deploy it as a patch or it gets delayed until the next dlc release (which would be disappointing). Currently this isn't too much of an issue in SP but I expect it is making life very difficult in the serious MP arena.
 
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DaleDVM

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Yes.
Actually, what I want to say is: having continuous armor/piercing mechanics on top of continuous hardness/hard attack mechanics is worst solution. You would end with two different systems that (conceptually) do the same, but each of them in different way, with only most math-inclined players understanding difference. Compare it to current system, where interaction is very straight forward ('more armor than enemy piercing good, less armor than enemy piercing bad, there is also hardness I guess').

When hard attack/hardness are compared you get a linear type of relationship. With armor/piercing it should be designed on a curve getting exponentially worse the further the unit is from piercing the armor. Hence the systems would not be the same at all. IMHO, this not only makes sense but is the best way to combine both mechanics together.

The result would make it so that winning the Armor/Piercing game is quite beneficial but not the end all be all either. Most importantly, because the penalties would be exponentially harsh when you are not even close to piercing the enemy divisions, it encourages spending your IC to get AT capabilities. Which was exactly what happened historically.
 
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FindFloppies

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I get that sides, back, and tops of tanks had less armor,
Rockets go right through the tops of turrets or the top of where the engine is, especially with a HEAT warhead.

500 lb/250kg bombs (pick your measurement system) don't really care what the amount of armor is, if they're close,

40 mm cannon (Stuka G, Hurricane IID) can also go right through the top.

Typhoons were well known for rocketing armor. Soviet pilots loved the 37mm cannon on the P-39 and P-63, and the IL-2 killed lots of tanks and other vehicles.
 
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FindFloppies

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I know it is outside the binary discussion, but AT guns were also very handy when attacking dug in units, fortified positions, like forts, urban areas, mountains, and about anywhere the infantry needs some close support, but tanks cannot be risked and indirect fire cannot be used due to danger close situations and the arc of the shell being ineffective.
In a different diversion, the '88' was used for direct fire vs a Polish counterattack, even though the unit was a Luftwaffe AA unit. Of course, later, they developed AT shells for the same gun, and even later, put it on the Tiger.
 

blahmaster6k

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after all having a "80 piercing" gun should absolutely give an advantage against tanks over having no AT guns, even if that tank is a "90 armor" one.
In all fairness, it does. Having hard attack against a tank unit is better than having no hard attack, regardless of whether or not you're piercing the tanks.
 

Corpse Fool

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as @Corpse Fool says
I believe it is @Cavalry saying those things, not me. You could technically armour up mediums enough to be well enough immune, but that comes at cost of guns and speed (and reliability) in the Before Times, while heavies had enough basic armour not to worry about it and just +5 guns and reliability. Another thing stopping players from piercing heavies with infantry, was anti spess mehreen rules that forbid the use of tank destroyers, which are the best piercing option available. 8 inf 2 HTD would pierce the common heavy templates easily enough.
they simulate two completely different and very historically significant things. one is the armor/piercing arms race and the other is whether or not armies were equipped with more than small arms at all.
I think you might be forgetting the definition of small arms, or perhaps you mistakenly used those words instead of soft attack. Anyway, even if we're playing loose with the definition, small arms does not include various forms of artillery, and that artillery in this game often has low piercing and hard attack.

On the whole I believe I disagree with a lot of these ideas about how armour/piercing should interact. I think I'd be pretty okay with having armour/piercing removed, provided we can also hand out appropriate levels of hardness and hard attack, which is not something I'm confident in happening. I don't particularly like having armour/piercing in the game because those are very low level interactions, and we play the game and design units at a very high level. The stats just seem out of place. Remove armour and shove it into hardness and defense/breakthrough, and remove piercing and shove it into hard attack.

Hardening a thing is lowering the amount of weak spots more generally. The more hardness something has, the fewer vulnerabilities it has when being fired at by a variety of weapons. You'd have to hit specific spots in order to result in anything other than the bullets pinging off it. Armour is the vulnerability of the hard parts to more specific weapons developed to deal with those hard spots (piercing). The AT gun has enough piercing to go through whatever amount of armour, and so the size of the target that gun can hit compared to other guns with less piercing, is larger. The 'hardness' has been effectively reduced against that particular weapon/amount of piercing.

So, if we did want the keep armour and piercing, that is the sort of interaction I'd like them to have. I don't specifically mean this exact formula with these exact numbers, but something like armour - piercing, the difference turned into a percentage and applied as a decrease to the softness or hardness of the template. For example, 100 armour and 50 piercing, we have +50, which would be +50% But since we can't just add +50% to the hardness if it was past 66% because that would go beyond 100%, we can flip it and apply it to the softness. -50% softness. If we had 80% hardness, we had 20% softness, which gets halved to only be 10% now, which means hardness is increased to 90%. Hardness goes up because armour is higher than piercing.

If it was the numbers were flipped so piercing is higher than armour, 50 armour against 100 piercing, that is -50, which is -50%. a 50% reduction in hardness. Using the previous 80% hardness example, they drop to 40%.

Now, one fairly obvious problem that arises from this is that having more piercing, lowers enemy hardness which makes your hard attack less useful. Since the sorts of things that offer piercing also generally offer hard attack alongside it, it just seems weird that hard attack works better with low piercing and high piercing actually works better with high soft attack. My solution to that is to just scrap the idea of soft and hard attacks, combine them into simply having attacks that get reduced by hardness the same as now. The trade within the template design would be between having basic attacks, and having the piercing to remove enemy hardness and end up with moar effective attacks.
 
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Cavalry

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Hardness is not an effective breaking- the- line weapon. It keep the tanks fighting longer, like breakthrough. But then the defender has time to pour in a lot of cheap troop with high defense stats. Remove the armor/piercing is like building your tank division with very low armor that can't get armor bonus. Yeah, if you want less binary then use the riveted armor. Do anyone prefer that?

If not then we can talk about how to make the race more critical.
 
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Corpse Fool

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Hardness is not an effective breaking- the- line weapon. It keep the tanks fighting longer, like breakthrough. But then the defender has time to pour in a lot of cheap troop with high defense stats. Remove the armor/piercing is like building your tank division with very low armor that can't get armor bonus. Yeah, if you want less binary then use the riveted armor. Do anyone prefer that?

If not then we can talk about how to make the race more critical.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. It isn't like armour really helps with breaking the line all that much either, especially not compared to stacking more attacks. If anything hardness can have more effect on damage reduction than armour itself can. If the enemy had 100 attacks and we had 20 defenses, if we had the hardness to knock them down to only 20 attacks, we'd be going from 34 hits down to only 2. Having armour would have only knocked us down to 17, and having armour on top of the hardness is only bringing us down to 1.
 

Cavalry

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If anything hardness can have more effect on damage reduction than armour itself can. If the enemy had 100 attacks and we had 20 defenses, if we had the hardness to knock them down to only 20 attacks, we'd be going from 34 hits down to only 2. Having armour would have only knocked us down to 17, and having armour on top of the hardness is only bringing us down to 1.
The defender often has infantry and don't have hardness. When the attacker attack, he mostly want fast and sure way to defeat defenders, not paying too much attention on damage receive, because all investment for attacking get paid when we can encircle enemy.

I want to say:
1.The developer want a race between armor and piercing, if this is not happen yet in some games then we can talk about how to make this happens more. By racing I means research AT in at least 1 yr in advance, or try mixing one heavy tank battalion with medium tank.
2. Some want a less binary stats, then they can try using tank division with lower armor and get pierced by enemy infantry. Is that a better game?
 

SchwarzKatze

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Yes.
Actually, what I want to say is: having continuous armor/piercing mechanics on top of continuous hardness/hard attack mechanics is worst solution. You would end with two different systems that (conceptually) do the same, but each of them in different way, with only most math-inclined players understanding difference. Compare it to current system, where interaction is very straight forward ('more armor than enemy piercing good, less armor than enemy piercing bad, there is also hardness I guess').
As pro.gamer.69 said, they are different concepts. Countries developed weapons to kill enemy soldiers using bullets and explosives. Since human don't vary that much in size (unlike, for example, dogs), personal weapons like rifle and (light) machine gun bullets generally don't exceed 8mm in diameter, and heavy machine guns that can penetrate covers and non-armored vehicles generally don't exceed 13mm, as anything more than those would cause too much recoil for the average soldier and reduce the amount of ammo they can carry.

Then tanks were invented to be protected against such weapons as well as shrapnel from explosions. Despite their appearance, the standard caliber of infantry weapons did not increase accordingly. Rather, specialized weapons like anti tank guns and rocket launchers were invented instead. The reason was that the physical characteristics of soldiers hadn't changed, and infantry were still expected to fight other infantry most of the time, and here's where the hardness and soft/hard attack distinction came from: hardness is the % of a unit that's immune to anti-personnel weapons, soft attack is infantry weapon damage, and hard attack is damage from larger calibers/anti-tank weapons.

(Side note: I've seen many arguments on how it doesn't make sense for AT weapons to be ineffective against unarmored soldiers so here's the reason: while it's true that a 37mm AT gun will obliterate anyone it hits, a bolt-action rifle can reload and target the next enemy faster, and there are way more rifles in an infantry battalion than guns in an AT gun battalion. That's why AT weapons have relatively low soft attack.)

On the other hand, penetration and armor work in a totally different way: hardness determines what kind of damage the unit is susceptible to, armor/penetration determines how much damage it actually takes. The values are weighted average across the whole division, so it's not just literal penetration depth and armor thickness. Armor and penetration stats vary according to the % of the division they make up presumably to simulate the occasions where tanks have to present their less protected sides and rear and the numbers of enemy tanks/AT guns present to exploit their weaknesses, so fewer tanks with more infantry in between makes the protection less effective. But this is where the binary penetration doesn't make sense: the 50% damage reduction perhaps represents the tactic of using two weaker tanks to outflank an enemy tanks whose front armor is too thick in order for one of them to attack the thinner side/rear armor, but with the weighted average armor/penetration calculation, this doesn't make sense: While having 20 instead of 24 AT guns in your division does make it more susceptible to the same enemy tanks, it doesn't make sense that you should suddenly take twice as much damage. Similarly, adding one more infantry battalion to an armored division would make the tanks provide less effective cover, but it should be gradual instead of a sudden cutoff.
 
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kaguravitro

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I will re-read this tread when in next dlc planes get armor and piercing
 
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I think there are serious issues with the idea of using hardness adjustments as a way of simulating the relative strength of armour/piercing between two sides. It isn't an effective simulation of what is going on actual armoured combat and would be subject to exploitation.

For example, if low piercing results in the target division hardness going up then a unit containing a lot of low quality anti-tank weapons might be more effective then a unit with higher quality weapons in the same numbers simply because the target becoming "harder" makes hard attack more relevant. I suspect an alternative model for armour would likely need to be a new set of algorithms developed from scratch. That seems extremely unlikely to happen so I've not even bothered to make a real effort to come up with anything.

As a side issue. One of the "not realistic" aspects of HOI4 anti tank guns is that the technology improvements should result in guns with higher piercing and lower hard attack. This steady reduction in the effectiveness of anti-tank guns due to the tactical impact of their increased weight was the main driving force for the transition to tank destroyers.

A further point, which HOI4 doesn't simulate well is that one of the effects of the use of tanks was to increase the intensity of combat. The only area where this occurs in HOI4 is when armour exceeds piercing which is actually a simulation of tanks being able to relatively safely close assault infantry positions. If you play an realistic tactical / operational level games then it becomes quite apparent that assaulting a position using company / battalion scale forces is quite different when armour is involved to when using an infantry based force. Attacks with tanks aren't necessarily particularly effective at reducing friendly losses (although they can be) but the battle will tend to progress a lot quicker.

Having said that, I appreciate that there is an element of simulating this in the combat tactics system but I suspect those tactical schemes linked to high hardness should have combat adjustments to reflect an intensification of combat rather than attacker bonus and defender penalty, as well as the combat movement bonus. This would better simulate the way tank blitz actually works.
 
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For example, if low piercing results in the target division hardness going up then a unit containing a lot of low quality anti-tank weapons might be more effective then a unit with higher quality weapons in the same numbers simply because the target becoming "harder" makes hard attack more relevant.
It's almost like I wrote an entire paragraph about that specific problem and what I'd do about it. Which leads to problems of its own, of course and part of why I said I just don't like armour/piercing.
This steady reduction in the effectiveness of anti-tank guns due to the tactical impact of their increased weight was the main driving force for the transition to tank destroyers.
Tank destroyers were conceptualized long before the guns got heavy enough to make them unwieldy. Of course, the original tank destroyers were a lot more like the m18 or ACATs than they were the jagdtiger, their original purpose was to be light and fast in order to quickly react to where tank threats pop up as part of a QRF. I'm not really sure when or why we started to see a drift towards heavier tank destroyers. It seems to really only be the soviets and germans that went down this path.
 
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A further point, which HOI4 doesn't simulate well is that one of the effects of the use of tanks was to increase the intensity of combat. The only area where this occurs in HOI4 is when armour exceeds piercing which is actually a simulation of tanks being able to relatively safely close assault infantry positions. If you play an realistic tactical / operational level games then it becomes quite apparent that assaulting a position using company / battalion scale forces is quite different when armour is involved to when using an infantry based force. Attacks with tanks aren't necessarily particularly effective at reducing friendly losses (although they can be) but the battle will tend to progress a lot quicker.

Having said that, I appreciate that there is an element of simulating this in the combat tactics system but I suspect those tactical schemes linked to high hardness should have combat adjustments to reflect an intensification of combat rather than attacker bonus and defender penalty, as well as the combat movement bonus. This would better simulate the way tank blitz actually works.


The "combat tactics" in-game is currently just a dressed up "sleight of hand" to introduce modifiers to the combat resolution. It's got nothing to do with any tactical or operational "simulation" as currently implemented. They could be, but they aren't which is an oversight from PDS side IMO.

The combat tactics system could be used to "simulate" both tactical developments (tied to experience, equipment, supply, terrain etc) like the impact of armored vehicles on the battlefield doing X or Y, as well as operational constraints and advantages (coordination between formations, C3, intel, logistics, leadership etc) but it's currently underutilized to semi-randomly throw in modifiers to obfuscate the combat resolution.


An experienced division (and experienced leadership) should act differently from an unexperienced one in terms of tactical choices made by its various commanders if they know the enemy has tanks which they can't pierce at will. Likewise an experienced commander of an armored force should employ maneuvering schemes and focus on bypassing strongpoints (resulting in a lower operational-scale tempo but lower losses) if the enemy has better guns than his tanks can put up with but ONLY IF his nation has a school of thought in terms of operational doctrines which allows it or if the General has some trait that allows non conformal actions (for good and bad).
On the other hand, unexperienced commanders and forces shouldn't adapt their tactics in a similar manner and should therefore suffer higher losses in a shorter amount of time (the 1940s counterattacks at Arras or Cambrai is a good study). A fanatical commander might move his armor under clear skies despite enemy air superiority while a more cautious leader might do so only at night or bad weather (with lower losses but at a lower operational tempo) etc etc. There's much room for improvement.
 
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Tank destroyers were conceptualized long before the guns got heavy enough to make them unwieldy. Of course, the original tank destroyers were a lot more like the m18 or ACATs than they were the jagdtiger, their original purpose was to be light and fast in order to quickly react to where tank threats pop up as part of a QRF. I'm not really sure when or why we started to see a drift towards heavier tank destroyers. It seems to really only be the soviets and germans that went down this path.

The Germans and Soviet mostly used obselete chassis for TD, or existing chassis if they need bigger gun. Jagdtiger is an exception at a time the Germans faced the largest tank fleets in the world and have experienced crews that can maximize return on investment. The heavy Soviet is actually assault gun, that can double as TD, they fire very heavy ammo.