Everyone westernizes just like in 1.5

[Myrten]

From one extreme to another and back

I think that instead of nerfing westernization progress speed requirements should be much harder. Instead of being behind in tech country should have to catch up in tech to westernize. There could be some shortcuts, but it shouldn't be as easy as now since AFAIK the only country which historically westernized was Russia.

 

[Novacat]

The real question is where they got the adjacency from.

 

[Freudia]

The AI would never westernize if it was based on being able to catch up in tech to a western neighbor.

It's also honestly a good thing for gameplay's sake that "too many" nations are westernizing, as this at least lets them put up a fight to western invasion.

 

[Myrten]

The real question is where they got the adjacency from.

From Gujarat which got it from Bahmanis which got it from French colonies I guess.

The AI would never westernize if it was based on being able to catch up in tech to a western neighbor.

It's also honestly a good thing for gameplay's sake that "too many" nations are westernizing, as this at least lets them put up a fight to western invasion.

And it should never westernize if it's neither Russia nor OE, except in very exceptional circumstances. Most of the world westernizing is as historical as aliens giving them tech.

 

[Novacat]

From Gujarat which got it from Bahmanis which got it from French colonies I guess.

Did France not convert its colonies to Indian Trade Companies?

 

[Myrten]

Did France not convert its colonies to Indian Trade Companies?

That's interesting because they did, but maybe not immediately?

 

[TolHydra]

Oh no, our European privilege, how are we supposed to fight them now?!

More, men.

I think we might as well make the ROTW unplayable, while we are at it, (/s) they historically did nothing of significance in the era anyway.

 

[Novacat]

That's interesting because they did, but maybe not immediately?

Okay, so theres nothing wrong with westernization, just that French AI was stupid and did not convert to Indian Trade Companies in a timely manner.

 

[Denkt]

I think it is realistic to see natives westernise, some of them did get to about the european military competence and some did even become important in the powerstrugle.

 

[Will Lucky]

In the time period of 1444-1821, the only nation of any importance to westernize was Russia. And even then that wasn't a great leap compared to what we are seeing here considering in game-terms it was Eastern-Western.

Westernization should either be harder, or a step by step process up the tech

 

[FreeSoc]

If increased frequency of Westernisation allows Indian states to put up a strong fight against Western colonial powers, then I'm all for it - it makes up for the inability of Indian states to (as some of them did historically) use Western mercenaries or "tech up" to near-Western standards militarily without Westernising their government.

 

[VampireBoot]

In the time period of 1444-1821, the only nation of any importance to westernize was Russia. And even then that wasn't a great leap compared to what we are seeing here considering in game-terms it was Eastern-Western.

Westernization should either be harder, or a step by step process up the tech

The very concept of technology groups in EU4 is a blunt and abstract way to make games play out more-or-less historically, with Europe usually dominating the world by 1800 barring player intervention. Trying to accurately model technology spread in a videogame is an impossible task, which is why the game uses such a blunt and silly tool for the job. Historically, no country has ever westernized like in game, because the very idea of tech groups is a fabrication for gameplay purposes. And part of making the gameplay of tech groups work out in a fun way is to let players (and some lucky AI) overcome those difficulties with a bit of work. An acceptable reason to make westernizing harder or easier is to maximize gameplay, not to try to fulfill any sort of historical goal (because again, tech groups themselves are not historical).

 

[Karabas1543]

The very concept of technology groups in EU4 is a blunt and abstract way to make games play out more-or-less historically, with Europe usually dominating the world by 1800 barring player intervention. Trying to accurately model technology spread in a videogame is an impossible task, which is why the game uses such a blunt and silly tool for the job. Historically, no country has ever westernized like in game, because the very idea of tech groups is a fabrication for gameplay purposes. And part of making the gameplay of tech groups work out in a fun way is to let players (and some lucky AI) overcome those difficulties with a bit of work. An acceptable reason to make westernizing harder or easier is to maximize gameplay, not to try to fulfill any sort of historical goal (because again, tech groups themselves are not historical).

+1

 

[uishax]

Westernisation is just too trivial at 5 unrest, any nation that's been at peace for 30 years can westernise without trouble.
I changed it to 10 unrest, much more of a challenge.

 

[Rabid]

The very concept of technology groups in EU4 is a blunt and abstract way to make games play out more-or-less historically, with Europe usually dominating the world by 1800 barring player intervention. Trying to accurately model technology spread in a videogame is an impossible task, which is why the game uses such a blunt and silly tool for the job. Historically, no country has ever westernized like in game, because the very idea of tech groups is a fabrication for gameplay purposes. And part of making the gameplay of tech groups work out in a fun way is to let players (and some lucky AI) overcome those difficulties with a bit of work. An acceptable reason to make westernizing harder or easier is to maximize gameplay, not to try to fulfill any sort of historical goal (because again, tech groups themselves are not historical).

+1 again, if we had a more nuanced tech system then countries would be able to get Western advisers on administrative and military matters which would help them keep up in tech in those regions, without this silly "tech group" abstraction and all-or-nothing westernisation. With the current system, too-easy westernisation is far preferable to too difficult.

 

[Ralepozozaxe]

I see a new way to get the India achievement. Don't make your provinces into trade companies, let the Indians westernize, vassalize them and vassal feed your way to victory.

 

[Myrten]

Oh no, our European privilege, how are we supposed to fight them now?!

More, men.

I think we might as well make the ROTW unplayable, while we are at it, (/s) they historically did nothing of significance in the era anyway.

Which country from ROTW did westernize during this time period?

Okay, so theres nothing wrong with westernization, just that French AI was stupid and did not convert to Indian Trade Companies in a timely manner.

That shouldn't be enough and there is a lot of westernized nations outside india, every native american tribe which survived to 1700s did westernize.

I think it is realistic to see natives westernise, some of them did get to about the european military competence and some did even become important in the powerstrugle.

They didn't westernized in EU IV terms, see later historical start dates for reference.

If increased frequency of Westernisation allows Indian states to put up a strong fight against Western colonial powers, then I'm all for it - it makes up for the inability of Indian states to (as some of them did historically) use Western mercenaries or "tech up" to near-Western standards militarily without Westernising their government.

Well historically Europeans used divide and conquer strategy and now western AI is far from doing this.

The very concept of technology groups in EU4 is a blunt and abstract way to make games play out more-or-less historically, with Europe usually dominating the world by 1800 barring player intervention. Trying to accurately model technology spread in a videogame is an impossible task, which is why the game uses such a blunt and silly tool for the job. Historically, no country has ever westernized like in game, because the very idea of tech groups is a fabrication for gameplay purposes. And part of making the gameplay of tech groups work out in a fun way is to let players (and some lucky AI) overcome those difficulties with a bit of work. An acceptable reason to make westernizing harder or easier is to maximize gameplay, not to try to fulfill any sort of historical goal (because again, tech groups themselves are not historical).

Well almost every country ending up in western tech group is certainly not good for gameplay

 

[Freudia]

Well almost every country ending up in western tech group is certainly not good for gameplay

Why? I would prefer everyone being able to fight back against Western European aggression over everyone bending over and dying to western Europe. Surely Europe having to actually exert effort is good for gameplay, no?

 

[Nesus]

Marocco finished it's westernisation in my game in year 1480, which i think is too early... way to early

 

[Myrten]

Why? I would prefer everyone being able to fight back against Western European aggression over everyone bending over and dying to western Europe. Surely Europe having to actually exert effort is good for gameplay, no?

Player can conquer anything, but western European AI won't do as well as it did historically and this game is about a time period when Europe did dominate the world