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RedRalphWiggum

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Couldn't it be an argument that as the abilities/numbers of anti-ship missiles increase, the escort ships weaponry and self-defence weapon systems can also be increased in ability/number? Carriers are of too much importance to be deployed without adequate defences.

You are making it sounds as if a sure-fire defence exists, or will automatically appear as offensive weapons are developed. The fact is, you can only do so much against a barrage of missiles and if they keep coming eventually one will get through. Probably much more than one if used in enough numbers.
 
Mar 11, 2007
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You say missile sites would be taken out first - by who? An omnipotent power?

Well, any country fielding a major carrier is pretty close to being an omnipotent power (France, UK, Russia, US).

You are making it sounds as if a sure-fire defence exists, or will automatically appear as offensive weapons are developed. The fact is, you can only do so much against a barrage of missiles and if they keep coming eventually one will get through. Probably much more than one if used in enough numbers.

More to the point is, I think, the question why the carrier should be in range of these missiles in the first place.

I don't think carriers have become more survivable or less survivable than they were in the 1930s. The threats have increased, sure, but so has the defence. New CIWS like MANTIS and their equivalents, not to mention laser weapons, are already available or rapidly becoming available. There is no doubt that the new anti-ship missiles will easily break through a 1980s and possibly even 1990s defence. But that's not what's surrounding the new carriers, and especially not the ones yet to be built.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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More to the point is, I think, the question why the carrier should be in range of these missiles in the first place.

I don't think carriers have become more survivable or less survivable than they were in the 1930s. The threats have increased, sure, but so has the defence. New CIWS like MANTIS and their equivalents, not to mention laser weapons, are already available or rapidly becoming available. There is no doubt that the new anti-ship missiles will easily break through a 1980s and possibly even 1990s defence. But that's not what's surrounding the new carriers, and especially not the ones yet to be built.

The missile might get within range of them.
 

imperialman

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You are making it sounds as if a sure-fire defence exists, or will automatically appear as offensive weapons are developed.
To be perfectly fair, I did say "can" rather than will.
 
Mar 11, 2007
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Which is why I mentioned the German submarines and their successes against carriers in World War Two (and one could add the American sinking of Shinano to that as well). Nobody is saying that there isn't a threat to carriers. What I am saying is that the benefit of carriers far outweighs the threat against them.


It's nothing new, nothing game-changing. In terms of relative advantage, the Charlie class submarines were a considerably greater threat to aircraft carriers than these missiles are today. Also, need I mention that this missile is being developed by two nations that do in fact operate aircraft carriers and are either already building more or seeking ways to build more in the future? Don't you see that there might be something of a paradox there, if this missile made carriers obsolete?
 
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SAS

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I don't think anyone is claiming they are easy to sink, I think people are claiming they are becoming a lot more sinkable than they used to be. Coupled with their huge cost, they are not as good an investment, relatively speaking, as they once were.

If you throw a couple of thousand rounds a minute of depleted uranium rounds at the missile through computer guided radar tracking the ship wins.
 

unmerged(255172)

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If you throw a couple of thousand rounds a minute of depleted uranium rounds at the missile through computer guided radar tracking the ship wins.
If your opponent has a surface task force within firing range, and has scrambled all his bombers loaded with anti-ship cruise missiles, and fires all the weapons at your carrier group at the same time, I'll say you run out of du rounds and aa missiles pretty fast, and better be prepared for a long swim home :)

If a carrier group allows bombers to get within firing range - and it's a big area to cover with the CAPs - they are certainly very vulnerable. They do also, of course, carry a hell of a punch.
 

Brutoni

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I hate this argument. It's always the same. X beats Y, or Y beats X, or both beat each other. The reality is that such obvious extremities rarely exist. Also one can argue that the prevelance of multiple weapons and strategies to try and overcome the proven efficiency of an existing strategy merely prove that the existing strategy/equipment is a proven one.

People always seem to argue that a carrier can be destroyed because cheap aircraft/missiles, subs, land based weapons, satelites, long range ELINT aircraft and a surface group can be present to counter the carrier battle group.

Well lets get real here, a carrier battle group is expensive. But getting enough missiles, aircraft, submarines, land based weapons together to be able to overwhelm the escorts, the carrier, the CAP, the soft kill systems, the multiple hull redundancies (double hull is a common building practice on carriers) and everything else is NOT cheap.

Then finding the carrier is not easy. The commander of a CBG will not make it EASY. He will punnish every mistake you make while finding the Carrier battle group, and you will make mistakes. He will have other skilled captains to defence him. He has as much firepower as you do. It is concentrated in a very small area in a very large world.

GPS and Satelites may be able to locate a CBG at sea, but that depends on the location of the Satelite... which follows a very predictable flight path and can be shot down. It also depends on good weather, and numerous other physics based factors which as a physics graduate I can PROMISE you will serious mess up your operations.

Then you get together, you launch your attack. As you attack you WILL Be seen. You do not launch over 100 missiles and avoid detection. AMRAAM, Meteor, Sidewinder etc can all engage missiles. So the 40+ aircraft the Carrier has can be scrambled and engage you... after all to launch that many missiles without detection and without having already come across the CAP you will HAVE to be at long range. Even setting that aside an F35C can theoretically carry what... 12 AAM's. Say 4 ASRAAM and 8 Meteor. Even if you only have lets say 10 of your 40 F35's up in the air to engage in time thats still 120 missiles fired at the enemy missiles. Assuming a terrible 50% hit ratio, you knock down 60 straight away.

So 60 coming in towards your battle group. Your 2 T45's can engage up to 12 targets simultaneously but due to Aster having an ARH missile it can instead take time shared updates from the Sampson and rely on the ARH to engage more targets. Thats 96 missiles from both T45's. They are world beating missiles and come with a brutally effective sensor system. Lets say a very reasonable 75% efficiency for 69 more missiles killed.

Finally you enter local area defence. CAAM starts to open fire from the 2 T26 and the Carrier. Lets say a modest 24 CAAM on each ship. For 64 CAAM. And lets got for 50% hits due to closing speed of missiles, reaction time etcetc. Thats now another 32 missiles killed.

Finally the attack is multi vector to put the most stress on the battlegroup and because you want to ensure that if one attack group is found it doesn't mean your entire attack group is found. So 4 CIWS kills from the carrier, 2 from each of escorts for another 8 missiles killed so 12 from CIWS.

Finally the escorts will have moved to protect the CBG and deployed soft kill.
UMMMMMMm, You will need to fire over 200 missiles from multiple directions to even begin to start causing casualties to the CBG from maximum range. Thats assuming at most a 75% accuracy from the most modern sensors and SAMs available.

Assuming of course you find the carrier, engage at range with stand off missiles, the CAP doesn't find you, your satelite and GPS controlled missiles work...

Submarines are in my belief a FAR FAR greater threat to any carrier. Much harder to detect, it doesn't take as many torpedoes to sink or serious crippled a vessel. Torpedoes are more likely to hit areas like the engine room which means even if you don't finish the carrier you start bad fires, slow or stop it moving and numerous other bad things.

Carriers are not increasingly vulnerable. With concepts like UCAV and Stealthy fighters as well as stealthed warships CBG's are keeping up with the times. Networked sensor arrays and defence layers ensure that your likely to have to JAM the entire battlegroup to truly stop them from firing at you with a decent effectiveness. UCAV's are also very interesting X-47B can deliver 2 Tomahwak from a combat radius of 2000 nautical miles.... With the range of the Tomahawk added in they can easily strike with stealth and precision at long range high threat assets to the carrier. F35B's/Super Hornets carrier greater ordnance and are thus able to put up a very effective CAP in wartime. Not to mention SEAD and mass strikes to make it even more difficult to find the X-47B's.

Sorry, there is a lot of hype from both sides, there is a lot of real and historical proof of both sides. Which means they are both relevant and we will only find out which is more relevant in real life... which then also depends on the commander and so forth.

People always forget that more often than not, the most likely failure is in the human element of the strategy or equipment.
 

unmerged(255172)

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Very good arguments there. Just one small issue:
Torpedoes are more likely to hit areas like the engine room which means even if you don't finish the carrier you start bad fires, slow or stop it moving and numerous other bad things.
Modern heavyweight torpedoes don't work that way anymore. They don't penetrate the ship like they did in WWII, but explode underneath the ship to break its keel.

Your point is still valid, obviously. Structural damage to a ship superstructure will almost certainly destroy steering and propulsion, and damage lots of other subsystems (I doubt any sonar will still exist after a torpedo hit).

It is actually a bit unclear that any ship will survive a heavyweight torpedo. Anything from Frigate and down will almost certainly sink; it seems everyone agrees to this. A Burke or Tico may survive one torpedo, but nobody actually tried as far as I know. For what we know, even a supercarrier may be destroyed (at least a firepower kill) by a single torp.

We'll go with conventional wisdom in NWAC, though.
 

Brutoni

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Very good arguments there. Just one small issue:

Modern heavyweight torpedoes don't work that way anymore. They don't penetrate the ship like they did in WWII, but explode underneath the ship to break its keel.

Your point is still valid, obviously. Structural damage to a ship superstructure will almost certainly destroy steering and propulsion, and damage lots of other subsystems (I doubt any sonar will still exist after a torpedo hit).

It is actually a bit unclear that any ship will survive a heavyweight torpedo. Anything from Frigate and down will almost certainly sink; it seems everyone agrees to this. A Burke or Tico may survive one torpedo, but nobody actually tried as far as I know. For what we know, even a supercarrier may be destroyed (at least a firepower kill) by a single torp.

We'll go with conventional wisdom in NWAC, though.


:eek: So the lesson learnt is that while really fast Russian jets and a Kirov class with supersonic missiles may scare you. The real one to be worried about is the nasty Russian sup just waiting to do that to you.

Makes sense that Torpedoes do that now that I think about it. Afterall, it's often much easier to let something hurt itself than to take it apart piece by piece.

Out of sight... definitely not out of mind :p
 

ikalugin

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Killing a carrier group is cheaper than building it, but carrier group is a universal power projection tool.
And you have only so many sam rounds on your carrier group - one refitted Kirov has enough cm to deplete a carrier group ammo, especially if they are not of american kind, but are British for example.
 

imperialman

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Killing a carrier group is cheaper than building it, but carrier group is a universal power projection tool.
And you have only so many sam rounds on your carrier group - one refitted Kirov has enough cm to deplete a carrier group ammo, especially if they are not of american kind, but are British for example.

How so? I'm not up to date on Russian specs.
 

ikalugin

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It replaces 20 shipwrecks with uksk modules. Hence it feasible for 1 ship to carry 80 yahonts (or their derivatives by this point)]
Carrier battlegroup normally wont use its whole vls capacity for sams, hence about 200- sams (SM6 kind) are to be expected.
With use of 2 or so rounds per inbound missile would severely depleet the inventory, rendering it vulnerable to an attack.

However in real life more assets would be used - for example 1 refurbished 1144 2-3 22350 escorts and 1-2 refurbished 949A.
 

Amur_Tiger

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It replaces 20 shipwrecks with uksk modules. Hence it feasible for 1 ship to carry 80 yahonts (or their derivatives by this point)]
Carrier battlegroup normally wont use its whole vls capacity for sams, hence about 200- sams (SM6 kind) are to be expected.
With use of 2 or so rounds per inbound missile would severely depleet the inventory, rendering it vulnerable to an attack.

However in real life more assets would be used - for example 1 refurbished 1144 2-3 22350 escorts and 1-2 refurbished 949A.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't a large part of the point of sea-skimming that it makes it very difficult to engage with sams and other longer ranged weaponry?
 

Robinsa

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Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't a large part of the point of sea-skimming that it makes it very difficult to engage with sams and other longer ranged weaponry?
Yes but modern AA systems are also designed specificly to be able to engage these targets. Im no expert but I think the greater problem is how to deal with stuff like the BrahMos and attacks that try to overwhelm the system. Medium distance missiles are cheap and carriers are expensive. ;)