Even vassals westernize. Too many westernized countries.

[happymix91]

Westernization became too easy.

Small countries can westernization because they have one culture and religion.

Large countries can westernization because changed rebel system is very stable once nationalism gone wholly.

Even there are much less benefit of westernization, ai westernize frequently and easily.

 

[Denkt]

And it is a problem that the ai try to stay competive?

 

[happymix91]

And it is a problem that the ai try to stay competive?

Westernization is not that good choice for Eastern Europe and Muslims in 1.8, and Asian or another continents should go through very hard way to westernization. If easy westernization is intended for competitive Ai, well I hope for another DLC.

 

[WeissRaben]

I don't really see a problem. Many countries "westernized" before the end of the 18th century: after that, they stalled again. The real divide, the one of Maxim Gun possessions and Colossuses of Rhodes and Fashoda, came with the Industrial Revolution, not before.

 

[Denkt]

It is hard and very dangerous but if the country can stay at peace it will likely complet it.

 

[happymix91]

Is there any other country which westernized in EU4 Bookmarks except Russia? Even Russian westernization is considered ahistorical. Westernization should be very difficult.

 

[Aries666]

When I finished my last game in 1790 pretty much every country that could westerise had done so, including Russia, PLC and Ottomans but for these countries westernising is a waste of points more often than not.

 

[WeissRaben]

Is there any other country which westernized in EU4 Bookmarks except Russia? Even Russian westernization is considered ahistorical. Westernization should be very difficult.

Russia, the Ottomans, Persia, Punjab, Japan, various other minor nations around the world. As I said, you can't think of Maxim Guns as a model of westernization: Europe was not so far ahead that it was unreachable. Often, some extensive but doable reforms were enough. When, instead, the Industrial Revolution came, an entirely different societal structure was needed, making the jump quite more difficult and giving rise to British troops burning the Summer Palace.

 

[oblio-]

The real problem is the name of the process. It should be called "modernization" instead of "westernization". "Westernization" is loaded with negative connotations while "modernization" reflects that the game is focused on the Early Modern era going into the Modern era.

 

[Denkt]

Is there any other country which westernized in EU4 Bookmarks except Russia? Even Russian westernization is considered ahistorical. Westernization should be very difficult.

Don't use bookmarks to check which countries did modernises/westernises.

I would say alot of native americans deserve to get western tech ca 1600.
Myscore should have it, it was advanced enought that Great Britania used the rockets they faced in India against Napoleon France.
Granada, Morocco and maybe some other North Africa countries should be in western tech group at start.

 

[WeissRaben]

The real problem is the name of the process. It should be called "modernization" instead of "westernization". "Westernization" is loaded with negative connotations while "modernization" reflects that the game is focused on the Early Modern era going into the Modern era.

If it was called Modernization, I would frankly saddle it on European backs as well.

 

[nicechinos]

The real problem is the name of the process. It should be called "modernization" instead of "westernization". "Westernization" is loaded with negative connotations while "modernization" reflects that the game is focused on the Early Modern era going into the Modern era.

It was exactly westernisation in case of Russia. Pyotr declared that people should be dressed and shaved like Europeans do after he came from his long stay in the Netherlands. It was the beginning of westernisation.

 

[happymix91]

'Westernization' means not only technological evolve. As a matter of technology, military pip became much similar and many countries reach their with some effort. Westernization also means mental and social change. I'm East Asian and I think East Asia can compete with western nations in technology and national power at 17th, but if we want to change mental and social things in that age, it is nearly impossible.

 

[oblio-]

If it was called Modernization, I would frankly saddle it on European backs as well.

While this is true, it would be much better to use a neutral term. Furthermore, as was pointed out in various situations, if my Mamluks have conquered all of Europe in 1600, culture "converting" along the way, who is there left to Westernize off of?

It was exactly westernisation in case of Russia. Pyotr declared that people should be dressed and shaved like Europeans do after he came from his long stay in the Netherlands. It was the beginning of westernisation.

For Russia yes, no one is debating that. But when everybody else does it there are tons of complaints that "only Russia" did it. You're new around here so you haven't seen the discussion from patch 1.5 (I think that was the last one with easy Westernization). Ironically, now Russia is one of the few countries that does not need it at all, making its name sound even phonier.

 

[happymix91]

Magna Mundi use 'Modernization' with complicated and difficult process, but I don't want that much for unmoded game. And I don't mind using wesernization, it is matter of system not a word.

 

[Denkt]

But you don't have to change mentality to western to be on the front of tech advancement.

 

[WeissRaben]

'Westernization' means not only technological evolve. As a matter of technology, military pip became much similar and many countries reach their with some effort. Westernization also means mental and social change. I'm East Asian and I think East Asia can compete with western nations in technology and national power at 17th, but if we want to change mental and social things in that age, it is nearly impossible.

The only problem is, it was not needed. Until you got to industrialization, which only really works if you have a decently wealthy middle class and merchant class, the rest could be saddled on monarchs. Hell, in most of Europe it was - France didn't have a central bank up to the half of the 18th century. To reach the levels reached by 1750 Europe you only need technical proficiency and military know-how; societal restructuring is needed for the next jump.

 

[BestOfTheWest]

I think that westernization has defintely become easier.
If you know how to stockpile monarch points/money/manpower, it is actually quite 'easy' now - as long as you are not attacked by another nation. And there is still some opportunity cost, at least in the short run.

I am not sure about the AI - it might be the player that starts some sort of 'domino effect'. I was shocked in my currend game as Tunis that Ethiopia had westernized... I guess they could only do that because I did it.

 

[happymix91]

But you don't have to change mentality to western to be on the front of tech advancement.

Yes, so ingame countries can reach their without westernization. But without mental change, there is no use for modern technology. Qing can reach western technology on late 19th, but their society and government still in middle age, so they were beaten by Japan. Qing used naval budget for royal family and couldn't concentrate whole power of country, because they didn't 'west'ernize.

 

[FrosT37]

A fair compromise may be to keep the current system but only make a few AIs willing to westernize if the proper conditions are met.