Even at "Impossible" Level the Game Offers No Challenge: AI Completely Passive

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
May 14, 2012
55
0
It seems that all the developers of the game have been able to do so far, in order to give us "some" challenge, was to give the AI a huge amount of units (which is annoying for how fake that feels when the AI cheats like that).

Also adding such a powerful AOE "cannon" to the capital makes the whole game not more challenging but just boring, it now takes forever to win but the AI being as dumb as ever still has no chance.

If the devs are incapable to give us more of a challenge improving the AI, my suggestion to them is to hurry up and add multiplayer to the game, because it is quickly becoming boring.

Sorry to be so direct, but I feel that such a poor AI is a huge waste for an otherwise great game.
 

The Apprentice

Major
6 Badges
Oct 28, 2011
651
0
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Impire
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
"Direct" is one way of describing it. Phrases like "all the developers of the game have been able to do so far" and "If the devs are incapable" don't seem to fit with direct, though.
 

unmerged(168615)

Second Lieutenant
3 Badges
Sep 24, 2009
114
0
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
Even if your words are not chosen wisely, I agree, that there is no challeneg with the AI.
And it´s very very boring that the AI can produce several tier1 units a round if they are under siege. This cheating is really annoying.....hope they tweak the AI !!!
 

unmerged(461668)

Corporal
2 Badges
Mar 5, 2012
47
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sengoku
Agreed. AI very passive. Even in some cases a unit of mine was unfortunate to march into 3 neutral monsters, movement points are used up and i expect its death: then only one of those 3 attacks, the other 2 do nothing, although in sight.

Overall the AI is no challenge; as soon as you have about 3 strong, heavily buffed units those are nearly invincible. AI should at least be able to create some extra-strong and well buffed units by itself - i cant see that this is hard to code, but well, i'm not a pro-programmer.
 
May 14, 2012
55
0
"Direct" is one way of describing it. Phrases like "all the developers of the game have been able to do so far" and "If the devs are incapable" don't seem to fit with direct, though.

The AI is notoriously the toughest part to program, thus takes a long time to take care of, and it's unfortunately the aspect that is the least visible quickly. Much easier to notice a couple of lizard looking guys than an improved AI... but someone here would't pay extra money for a performing AI? So my critique is not necessarily for their competence, but maybe for their focus. What is strange is that "Fantasy Wars" that was developed by the same guys seemed to have a much better AI (didn't have the empire developing system, but as a wargame it was much more challenging).
 

UncleJJ

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
May 2, 2012
285
23
  • Darkest Hour
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I think the problem could at least partly because the AI runs out of gold and can't afford the better units so it just builds what it can afford at the time. Hence the large number of weak and middle range units. Because these are thrown away in combat they never get the number of perks a players units acquire.

Testing what gold an AI has is possible by using the Diplomacy sceen, assuming all its gold and mana are available there for diplomacy. At turn 120 and at war with me and most other AIs they typically have 30 gold and 15K mana. Yet instead of casting a whole host of summoned troops they spend their valuable casting time Harvest Blessing, Mana Spring (hence the mana surplus perhaps?) sometimes on new size 2 cities where the bonus is small. If they spent that time casting Earth Elementals or even Ghost Wolves they would put my forces under much more pressure.

In my recent game I have faced lots of mages, minotaurs and noble werewolves from one Impossible AI and even a temple unit, a Kroms Huscarl but it had just been built and hence no perks. But these units were just run into a confined space blocked by my earth elemental (regenerating) with a high level vampire and an ancient lich that just one-shotted them most of the time. I have also seen quite a few advanced units with good perks, like veteran skeletons, stubborn knights and the human veteran with maybe 5 perks that have been bought with gold (or free in starting city). Backed up with archers and rats to give the malus they put me under some pressure sometimes, other times they just ran into a meatgrinder.


With the amount of mana they stockpile I think the AI would put the player under much more pressure if it could cast more of its spells per turn. Rather than simply increasing their ability to cast spells faster I suggest they can cast (or be in the middle of casting) one of each 4 spell categories.

So each turn they can cast or be casting:
a Bane / attack spell (fireball, weakness, firestorm ...)
AND a Heal / Blessing (heal, frost weapon, elemental resistance ... )
AND a summon spell (ghost wolves, earth elemental...)
AND a spell in the Others category (counterspell, teleportation, greater dispel ...)

Of course the player would also have this multiple spell casting as well and this would make magic a much bigger part of the game, and it would be worth increasing mana production in the middle game. By spreading out the AI's spell casting into all 4 categories we should get much more interesting variety of spells every turn. The diplomacy screen would need to be changed to display the 4 spells each of the the AIs might be in the process of casting.
 
May 14, 2012
55
0
I think the problem could at least partly because the AI runs out of gold and can't afford the better units so it just builds what it can afford at the time. Hence the large number of weak and middle range units. Because these are thrown away in combat they never get the number of perks a players units acquire.

Do you really feel like the AI is playing the same game that we are playing? I really don't feel that, I have the impression that the AI is cheating by having units popping out of nowhere (they seem just to appear as soon as we approach their capital and doing stuff like that). How can we develop a "strategy" when the enemy doesn't even exist until we attack, and then appears conveniently all around our units? It's a game of strategy and yet the only thing that can make us win is having strong units!! that is not fun at all, that's why I say for the way the game is now it desperately needs multiplayer.
 

UncleJJ

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
May 2, 2012
285
23
  • Darkest Hour
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Do you really feel like the AI is playing the same game that we are playing? I really don't feel that, I have the impression that the AI is cheating by having units popping out of nowhere (they seem just to appear as soon as we approach their capital and doing stuff like that). How can we develop a "strategy" when the enemy doesn't even exist until we attack, and then appears conveniently all around our units? It's a game of strategy and yet the only thing that can make us win is having strong units!! that is not fun at all, that's why I say for the way the game is now it desperately needs multiplayer.

I think that the units popping into the game out of nowhere is mostly a display problem. The units were out of your units sight and then move into position. Some are units summoned or just built that turn and moved into the position you first see them.

I won't be playing multiplayer, so that won't help me, I want the AI improved for my single player experience. On the contrary I feel that multiplayer has dangers for the game development and might make the game too simple (to steamline play) rather than explore a deeper playing experience with more complexity.
 
Last edited:
Mar 12, 2012
634
1
When i playde this game once , the ai kept demanding i give them gold or they would declare war. I said no , obviously , they declare war.... than nothing. So eventually i just send 3 units in and slowly take everything while they do nothing. After wiping 1/2 the first ai's cities out , i ask him if he wants peace , he says "no". Ok i destroy everything and now my units are 1 turn away from taking his capital... all of a sudden he asks me for peace................ ya no. So i ,Conquer first guy , next AI comes along "Give me 02134023 gold or i declare war" , same thing happens again. I did this 4 times and realized the ai is really a game killer.
 

UncleJJ

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
May 2, 2012
285
23
  • Darkest Hour
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
There was another sort of bug, whereby the AIs would become very passive if the game had been played for a lot of turns. I guess something got stuck and they stopped working properly. This problem seemed to reset if the game was reloaded every few turns and it gave a better game, although still not able to handle over powered super perked up units. At least some of the reports of AI passiveness are due to this bug / feature of the game getting stuck.
 

unmerged(168615)

Second Lieutenant
3 Badges
Sep 24, 2009
114
0
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
I think that the units popping into out nowhere is mostly a display problem. The units were out of your units sight and then move into position. Some are units summoned or just built that turn and moved into the position you first see them.

No !
It´s not a dispaly problem! They pop out of the capitol - a few to several every turn of fresh tier1 units when you begin laying siege on their capitol city !
 

hadberz

Second Lieutenant
58 Badges
Apr 15, 2012
157
1
  • King Arthur II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
I have no problem with the AI cheating, but I would love it if the AI attacked me. My current game I am at war with everyone I met, but they only send one or two low level units to attack. My archers can just one shot kill them. The AI needs high level units and to just invade when at war with the player. I've seen the AI mount massive invasions against other AIs. So it should be possible.
 

Skyhunteren

Captain
71 Badges
Feb 10, 2011
437
211
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
No !
It´s not a dispaly problem! They pop out of the capitol - a few to several every turn of fresh tier1 units when you begin laying siege on their capitol city !

Are you quit sure about that? I'm just wondering as I haven't seen it yet and I have besieged quit a number of AI's ;)

But honestly. Unless they make AI cheating an on/off toggle Ino will always make somebody unhappy. Some people hate AI cheat in any form. While other enjoy the challenge it brings.

Now some may argue that Ino should be able to make a really challenging AI with no cheats, but honestly people have tried to make chees AI for decades now and they still get their asses kicked by humans.

Edit: I would still love a better, more agresive ai with better targeting prio
 

unmerged(489718)

Sergeant
1 Badges
May 12, 2012
84
0
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
First of all I would like to welcome Black-Knight to the forum. He was one of the few on the Elemental Forum who really tried to help make the Elemental game better with a lot of good suggestions rather than just kowtow to Frogboy. Moving on, I do not believe that the AI cheats when you attack its capitol city, but it appears that way because it throws out all its units at once without any particular focus and holds nothing in reserve. You'll notice that once you take out those units, very few units appear afterwards. The AI definately needs to be more aggressive, but that may require the other factions to focus on the human player which could lead to the factions all ignoring each other while they all bum rush the human player. HOMM 3 was a good example of this. That kind of AI can be even more annoying than passive AI. Programming AI is a tricky business at best.
 

Pugman

Lt. General
65 Badges
Feb 14, 2011
1.338
585
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Divine Wind
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
The AI just needs to build better units, buff those units, and use counters to the player's buffed up units. If the player is using a bunch of fire elementals immune to death magic, summon or build something that uses elemental damage, for example. It's just not thinking right now much at all.
 

Annex

Second Lieutenant
24 Badges
Jul 31, 2010
168
23
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Impire
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
The AI right now is absolutely no challenge. The roaming monsters put up more of a fight (especially the secondary worlds, dragons!) than the AI players. I can conquer the whole world without losing a single unit. Few observations:

- the AI declares war on a whim without properly assessing the military might of my units
- the AI endlessly sends units to their deaths without taking into account that it loses each and every engagement and I take no losses
- the AI does not properly defend its front line towns, just its capital
 
May 14, 2012
55
0
First of all I would like to welcome Black-Knight to the forum. He was one of the few on the Elemental Forum who really tried to help make the Elemental game better with a lot of good suggestions rather than just kowtow to Frogboy. Moving on, I do not believe that the AI cheats when you attack its capitol city, but it appears that way because it throws out all its units at once without any particular focus and holds nothing in reserve. You'll notice that once you take out those units, very few units appear afterwards. The AI definately needs to be more aggressive, but that may require the other factions to focus on the human player which could lead to the factions all ignoring each other while they all bum rush the human player. HOMM 3 was a good example of this. That kind of AI can be even more annoying than passive AI. Programming AI is a tricky business at best.

Thaks man, It's weird, regarding the AI. I did noticed that when you approach you have a first overwhelming response and then nothing, but I see no units move they just seem to appear around you. True anyways that after that first reaction the AI goes back to nothingness except for that ubercannon that it has in its main city... Which is helping a little but probably would make it impossible for the AI to ever defeat the player when used by us.

I remember in the good old day "Warlords"... that game was simpler of course, but the AI was tough... Just when you thought you could start to attack it would just rush tons of units at your kingdom like it would never end.

Also in Age of Wonders Shadow Magic the AI is better. A bit passive when you started to enter its territory, but it had a way to defend itself that was indeed quite tough.

I really hope they do something about it here because this game is really well made.