Eutopian Congress of Labour (ECL) - General Meeting

[Pero Coveilha]

Originally posted by hughbartlett
Personally, i wish to have absolutely the minimum amount of involvement in any union/anti union movements, although I can see the benefits of both. My party, the ERP, currently has no policy on unions, and it is likely to stay that way, because we cannot spend the time on union politics.

I hope we share some concerns and will be able to collaborate if it happened to

I also note, with humour, that the emblem on your main adversary, Rips, business card (wangaards avatar) has three red stars. Maybe he is a double agent, no? It would not surprise me, considering the past of Union politics in EUtopia. I hope that under your leadership, they enter the meainstream in a positive way, and keep true to their ideals.

You can't judge a book by its cover. Meseems that his avatar is more probably a homage to a Middle-East nation
I'd like he were a double-agent though. We'll see by the next negociations

 

[hughbartlett]

Question regarding V.1:

Why 14? should you not wait until they have finished school, at 18? 14 is the end of our proposed elementary school system! I would have to insist this was raised to at least 16 years of age!

Otherwise, seems to be what I expected.

 

[Pero Coveilha]

After a short discussion in the RD thread, I wish to remind everybody that the ECL doesn't seek for formal alliances, coalitions or whatever, with parties. We (well, I, since I'm still alone in here) we just wish to discuss our proposals with every parties in order that some of our demands can be discussed at the Parliament
But our proposals are to be discussed above all with the government and the corporation representatives

If you want to involve in the ECL activity, just join us! (eerrr me)

edit : mispelling (some...)

 

[Pero Coveilha]

Originally posted by hughbartlett
Question regarding V.1:

Why 14? should you not wait until they have finished school, at 18? 14 is the end of our proposed elementary school system! I would have to insist this was raised to at least 16 years of age!

OOC : do we have a precise description of EUtopian education system (apart the language issue)?
IC : By the age of 14 to 18, students would progressively enter the professional world. But they should remain in the education system, and have a minimum of basic general education till the end of their development

Otherwise, seems to be what I expected.

well then... happy?

 

[hughbartlett]

Four points:

1. Yes, happy
2.No, i have no info on present education system, but that is our parties proposal
3. We have no interest in going into coalition with you, our party wishes to stay out of the unoion debate
4. We wish the ECL good luck, as they seem to have the workers in their sights...it is essential that every organisationmust represent who they say they reresent. You say you are a trade union, and you are. We say we are slight left/centre, and we are, the FR...well...

 

[unmerged(1522)]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
After a short discussion in the RD thread, I wish to remind everybody that the ECL doesn't seek for formal alliances, coalitions or whatever, with parties.

Dear Sir,

the RD understands that your organization does not seek any formal agreement or alliance with parties. We respect that stance. We do, however, wish to express our support for the ECL's overall goal: improving the lot of the working class. Needless to say, this is a goal the RD fully shares.

With best wishes for the future success of your organization, I remain yours sincerely,

Melanchthon
Temporary Spokesperson of the Rally for Democracy

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Mr. Pero Coveilha I Vasco I_Killed-Kenny would like to join this Organization, with the mission so help our workers.
But I will left this union if the prime objective is to destabilizate the goverment.

I will work very hard, so the EUtopian workers have their rights.


Vasco I_Killed-Kenny

 

[Pero Coveilha]

I gladly welcome you, Vasco
here's your member card. Be honoured with the number #2

About your precautions, Democracy is a key-word of the ECL. That means that as long as the ECL members don't want to invlove their union in politics, the ECL will manage to respect their will. So I hope that this precaution will remain null and void

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
I gladly welcome you, Vasco
here's your member card. Be honoured with the number #2

About your precautions, Democracy is a key-word of the ECL. That means that as long as the ECL members don't want to invlove their union in politics, the ECL will manage to respect their will. So I hope that this precaution will remain null and void

Many thanks your this Card . And I hope the ECL will with my help, HELP the many workers of EUtopia

Vasco

 

[unmerged(3748)]

I kindly invite you to partake in the discussion in the newly opened "Coalition for Eutopian Progress" debate, which can be found here:

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58846

If you wish to comment, add, ask, whatever - do so right there!
I hope we can achieve a fruitful cooperation for the elections.

Kind regards,

Sebastian Fitzpatrick of the Rally for Democracy

 

[Pero Coveilha]

Dear Members, (especially Dear Vasco),
We are proposed to participate in a initiative that may change the future of EUtopia. We must decide about our attitude about it.

I personnally favor our participation in the discussions. But I'd like we define it, prior to any intervention. In the introduction it is stated that the objective is to form a "coalition". I think that we can't commit ourselves too strictly. We will make our proposals, discuss them, enrich them by having talks. But we are not to undertake to deal about a common program between parties, unions and other lobbies.
In other words : these negociations are not the place where we are to make compromises. These ones will occur when we will discuss with the corporation organization(s) and the government.
Your advice?

Concerning the preliminary platform, while we can be confident about the general perspective, some statements worry me:
"Implement regulations that make it easier to hire workforce and start businesses so as to encourage private enterprise. "
"Finetuning of social security program with the focus on finding/creating new jobs and/or providing re-education for the unemployed. Encouraging people to get back to work is the main objective. " We must be careful that - in no way- these reforms won't be pursued to the detriment of the workers, be they employed or not.
Of course we will have to seek clarification
And I think we may add some of our own concerns and proposals to the general dialogue

And now I hand over to you, my colleagues

(OOC now I hope that the GM will endly give data about EUtopia economics; then we will fill our platform and be able to have structured discussions)

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Dear leader. First I don't think is a good ideia to change the minimum age to 14, 15 should be the best, or even 16, Because we don't whant our little chirlden to "waste" their play time working.

I Believe, we sould stay independent untill the elections. And after the goverment been astablish, based on their political view we sould start cooperating with them.

Vasco

 

[Pero Coveilha]

Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
Dear leader.

I'm not official leader. Do you think we should elect ourselves for position (since we are only two, that shouldn't be too difficult), or should we wait for more members?

First I don't think is a good ideia to change the minimum age to 14, 15 should be the best, or even 16, Because we don't whant our little chirlden to "waste" their play time working.

I should precise that 14 is not the age students would begin to work. It would be the age at which they would be taught specific professional knowledge and general education at the same time, both inside the school system . By the age of 18 (at least), they would make more and more work experiences and progressively specialize themselves. We need the trainng programs to be well-thought and seek for real partnership between enterprises and school.
That said, I don't know if we agree now?

I Believe, we sould stay independent untill the elections. And after the goverment been astablish, based on their political view we sould start cooperating with them.

do you mean that we shouldn't take part in the "EUtopian Progress" discussions?

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
I'm not official leader. Do you think we should elect ourselves for position (since we are only two, that shouldn't be too difficult), or should we wait for more members?

I should precise that 14 is not the age students would begin to work. It would be the age at which they would be taught specific professional knowledge and general education at the same time, both inside the school system . By the age of 18 (at least), they would make more and more work experiences and progressively specialize themselves. We need the trainng programs to be well-thought and seek for real partnership between enterprises and school.
That said, I don't know if we agree now?

do you mean that we shouldn't take part in the "EUtopian Progress" discussions?

1- I think you should continue to be the leader, first because I sincerly think that you are doing a good job, and because you started this Union.

2-I say that many teenagers abandon school when they have age to do that and if it would be 14 they will abadon then, so I think that's a bad Ideia, 16 is probably the perfect age.
But now that I understand, what you said I support the ideia, but the stundents should have the right to choice if they what to specify ( start working ) or continue in teory.

3- We should not enter a coalition right now, first because if we enter a coalition and that coalition lost we would not be in a good position to negotiant with the goverment. But we should Support a Party and/or coalition if we think they have better "workers" policies. But not right now because not even one coalition was been constructed.

Vasco

 

[Pero Coveilha]

Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
1- I think you should continue to be the leader, first because I sincerly think that you are doing a good job, and because you started this Union.

Would you specialize in one (or more) domains and write down your own ideas?. Then you could have an official name for your position, if you wish

But now that I understand, what you said I support the ideia, but the stundents should have the right to choice if they what to specify ( start working ) or continue in teory.

of course, it was mean

3- We should not enter a coalition right now, first because if we enter a coalition and that coalition lost we would not be in a good position to negotiant with the goverment.

totally agree

But we should Support a Party and/or coalition if we think they have better "workers" policies. But not right now because not even one coalition was been constructed.[/B]

It's a bit contradictory. If we officially support one coalition, it's like if we join it.
I propose we stress our own proposals with any organization disposed to discuss with the ECL. By the date of the elections, we would publicly assess the outcome of our discussions. The EUtopian workers will then have to choose in all conscience.

I think we should begin this discussions as soon as possible, because after the coalition(s) are formed, they won't be willing to come back on their internal compromises.

To summarize, there are 5 alternatives:
1. Join a coalition now (-> we both say no)
2. Participate in any discussions we are invited in without joining any coalition (->what I said)
3. Wait until a coalition is formed and start discussions with it without joining (-> is this what you mean?)
4. Wait until a coalition is formed and join it (-> or this?)
5. Ignore any coalition

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
Would you specialize in one (or more) domains and write down your own ideas?. Then you could have an official name for your position, if you wish

I will start posting my ideias this night, I hope ( The bloddy Philosofy's test don't let me work for the workers ) And then I will "chose" my name

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
It's a bit contradictory. If we officially support one coalition, it's like if we join it.
I propose we stress our own proposals with any organization disposed to discuss with the ECL. By the date of the elections, we would publicly assess the outcome of our discussions. The EUtopian workers will then have to choose in all conscience.

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
I think we should begin this discussions as soon as possible, because after the coalition(s) are formed, they won't be willing to come back on their internal compromises.
B]

Probalby tommorow we should start it

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha

To summarize, there are 5 alternatives:
1. Join a coalition now (-> we both say no)
2. Participate in any discussions we are invited in without joining any coalition (->what I said)
3. Wait until a coalition is formed and start discussions with it without joining (-> is this what you mean?)
4. Wait until a coalition is formed and join it (-> or this?)
5. Ignore any coalition

1 - no
2 - yes ( we should before posting ask to enter the HQ [ it a why of saing it isn't really ask but not simply enter the HQ ] )
3 - yes ( I said this so we would not start a chat and the chat needed to be stop because the coalition and/or Party ended
4 - no
5 - never

Vasco

 

[unmerged(9119)]

So the Ideias came they can sond a little strange. [OOC] I'm not a employement expert [/OOC]


I Wages
1 - The miminum age to start working should be 16, and ( this is a very controversial ideia that was tried in Brazil and Portugal, but the ideia never when trow the parlimeint ) the election age should be 16
1- All workers have the right, to a xmas subsidy.

IIWorking conditions
1 - I think that their is no need to have commitions.

IV. Workers rights
1 - You mean that the union can sue a firm was "ECL"???
2- Every worker have the right to say agaisht the firm in court without losing s/he work
3 - A work sould be in the companie's ( group ) staff, after a period of 1 year. And if a companie is in a group.

VII. Retirement
1- All the retired workers have the right to the 13º mouth this mean in january the Worker have the 2 mouths pension ( So all the retired have a better live quality )

Vasco.
Please Pero comment, of cource you ( every one ) can question my ideias and if you like you can support it.

Pero you would be the Grand representent of the Workres. Now you creat a name for my position

 

[Pero Coveilha]

Originally posted by I_Killed-Kenny
I Wages
1 - The miminum age to start working should be 16, and ( this is a very controversial ideia that was tried in Brazil and Portugal, but the ideia never when trow the parlimeint ) the election age should be 16

do you mean political elections? If so, this is not the place to speak about that.
But we should demand indeed that all workers must be able to participate to the professional elections, and also the politically minor workers. So OK

1- All workers have the right, to a xmas subsidy.

good idea. I propose we demand a bonus in absolute numbers, not in %. Thus, this subsidy will proportionnally help more the lowest wages that the highest
(we will precise our demands as soon as we have the GM's figures)

IIWorking conditions
1 - I think that their is no need to have commitions.

Really??
I should explain the role of these commissions : 1/they would be composed by workers elected by their workmates; 2/ these representatives would have the power to make inquiries on the working conditions; 3/ they would be the spokesmen of their colleagues toward the hierarchy; 4/ as they would be acknowledged by the employer, this one should be forced to take their warning into account about security and so and so; 5/ they would be in contact with the State Labour Inspectors if a problem occurs

IV. Workers rights
1 - You mean that the union can sue a firm was "ECL"???

I don't understand. I meant that the union locals, or union nationals could sue enterprises, even if the union is not directly involved in the affair. Thus (see your point2-), workers who could fear to get fired or to have other sanctions from their employer, would be more protected from this risk. You know how many corporations manage to not respect the individual rights of their employees. A collective action would be an additionnal barrier against that

3 - A work sould be in the companie's ( group ) staff, after a period of 1 year. And if a companie is in a group.

sorry, could you explain? I don't understand

VII. Retirement
1- All the retired workers have the right to the 13º mouth this mean in january the Worker have the 2 mouths pension ( So all the retired have a better live quality )

agree. But we should demand a 13th month for the workers too, not only the retired! we haven't included it in our platform yet

Pero you would be the Grand representent of the Workres. Now you creat a name for my position [/B]

LOL I expected something more... usual in the union world,, like "general secretary" "Executive secretary", "president", "treasurer"... Would you specialize in a category of worker, in a economical sector, what else.... Or do you prefer to remain at the general level?

 

[unmerged(9119)]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
Really??
I should explain the role of these commissions : 1/they would be composed by workers elected by their workmates; 2/ these representatives would have the power to make inquiries on the working conditions; 3/ they would be the spokesmen of their colleagues toward the hierarchy; 4/ as they would be acknowledged by the employer, this one should be forced to take their warning into account about security and so and so; 5/ they would be in contact with the State Labour Inspectors if a problem occurs

I said that because the comition could became more powerfull that need to be and became like lose organizations and start thinking about only them ( their members ) and don't work to all society. And we must believe that the workers ( in the ECL or not ) will say if someone ( or some firm ) isn't respeting his rights, that why er are were right???
That's why I say their should not be comitions.

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
I don't understand. I meant that the union locals, or union nationals could sue enterprises, even if the union is not directly involved in the affair. Thus (see your point2-), workers who could fear to get fired or to have other sanctions from their employer, would be more protected from this risk. You know how many corporations manage to not respect the individual rights of their employees. A collective action would be an additionnal barrier against that

Okay now I undersatand

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
sorry, could you explain? I don't understand

[OOC] Okay, in Portugal we used some thing called "Recibos Verdes" ( green receipt ) that consist in working in some companie but not becaming a member of the staff. Okay? But now a worker that works in a Firm for one year he became a member of the staff.
So the grand employers did this: the worker A, worked in Firm B whicth is part of the group C. Then firm A simply change the worker to firm D, whitch is part of group C and the worker didn't do 1 year in that firm so he continue to only resive "green receipts", and with "green receipts" the boss don't have to pay all the wage and and can "fire" the work when he whats. So now the Groups counts was firms. Did you understand???
If not please read it again, or say. I talked about this because I don't know who the economy in EUtopia workes [/OOC]

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
agree. But we should demand a 13th month for the workers too, not only the retired! we haven't included it in our platform yet

No that's a bad ideia becuase you need to think in the small companies that many times only have to many to pay the wages. No that's a bad Ideia, only the retired

Originally posted by Pero Coveilha
LOL I expected something more... usual in the union world,, like "general secretary" "Executive secretary", "president", "treasurer"... Would you specialize in a category of worker, in a economical sector, what else.... Or do you prefer to remain at the general level?

On a general level please

Vasco

 

[unmerged(5662)]

To the Eutopian Congress of Labor and workers of Eutopia:

We welcome the ECL as a positive force for good in Eutopian society. As you develop your platform over the upcoming days and weeks, we hope that you will take into account the views of the Anglican Church of Eutopia (ACE) and the compassionate spirit of Christ in you hearts.

The ACE continues to relate the Christian faith to the realities of industrial and economic life. Initially, the ACE has attempted to establish principles which should guide Christians in labor disputes. The ACE recognizes that conflicts of economic interest will arise in a plural society, and affirms the process of negotiation and bargaining as the appropriate means for arriving at agreed conditions for work. However, we also urge Christian men and women to foster amongst those involved in conflict the exercise of compassion toward those whom the conflict puts at risk.

Although resolution of conflict without governmental intrusion is preferred, the ACE also believes that the role of the state is central to the well-being of working people. We believe that the government, as part of its social obligation, must examine solutions to the problem over and beyond existing programs, such possible solutions including, but not limited to, the following:

(1) Increased national investment in such areas as education, health, housing, the needs of aboriginal peoples, the environment and public infrastructure, the costs of such investment to be offset by anticipated savings in welfare and increased taxation revenue.

(2) Sharing the amount of work available among the whole work force, not merely by shorter hours where appropriate but by time out for long service leave and/or retraining, the costs of such leave to be met by monies currently being paid to the unemployed.

(3) New concepts of work and remuneration so that voluntary and unpaid domestic work be regarded equally with paid employment, and that traditional concepts of wage and welfare be merged into a broader system that offers an income sufficient for livelihood to all.

We also encourage Anglican parishes, social service and social justice agencies to explore ways of promoting such new concepts, in partnership as appropriate with other churches, community agencies, trade unions, the business community, politicians and policy-makers.

"Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth." James 5:4

Yours in Christ,
Bishop Edward