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arcorelli

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K'shar said:
Betrayels and backstabs in moderation are ok (and fun), but not on this scale, they are what they are, but to say that I can basically trust not a single persons solemn word looks bad, and that is the situation we have.

Well, I usually think that they are going to follow their word, but I try to have my back covered in case of -well- betrayal.

K'shar said:
Wrong, to be honest the dutch DOW and recent acts made the situation even more untenable. He blocked England from helping me as he would like, he used the French fleet and then left it too be defeated, he vassalized nations that were targets for France and therefore protects them. He was supposed to neutralize the Iberian front and therefore advised tahtDavout pull away to help Prussia, and so he did. However, by peacing Spain-Port while my men were on the otherside of the globe he killed any initiative I had on that front. End Result = worse then Dutch neutrality and England being my actual ally as he ought to have been..

He told you to move Davout out? Tem, you are evil :D I actually, asked Tem if I could continue to fighting France and he said I could, that was the reason I didn't fought the vassalization actually.


K'shar said:
Hehe, you need your head examined. I said you did it for fun no? thats the reason and thats what you said. Samething as extending the game...

Well, but as you said it sounded like

K'shar said:
1) SPA deserved to be marginalized for his collective acts, morals shouldn't play into your judgement ;) :p ...

It was not morals what it was part of my argument. But that leaving RUS+HAB alone it was too much for the end game.

K'shar said:
2) C'mon, as is clear they were mainly in it (or unintentionally for England) for the short term gains, they never fronted clear alliance objectives to win the war for all parties ... those aren't allies in my book. So no, it would still have effectivily left France vs. Austria, Russia, Spain as it basically was today (+Portugal) ... and that cannot be argued....

Yep, that was today. I am not arguing that, I am telling you what I thought it could happen, basically that NL+ENG could not -in the last 20 years of the game- continue the 'strike fast, win and peace'. I expected, as I told you, to suffer this session. I didn't think that I could go that easy as losing a COT (balanced with taking other) and vassalization.

BTW, Cas, Tem did not win the game. No idea why people follow the 'whoever is strongest at the last session played won'. France dominated the game 200 years, a coalition of 4 countries was needed to bring to her knees. I do not know how it could be discussed that K' won the game.


(Fnuco, HG created Fritaly, Frengland and I believe Frutch some other game)
 

unmerged(41172)

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arcorelli said:
Why I need to explain things I had already said?

I was very happily going with the 'let's destroy Spain' idea until I realized that:

1. With SPA effectively destroyed (because with POR stab hitting for 4 provinces, and then France doing the same) then it was SPA out.

2. NL+ENG (no matter they could go only for a little time, every time french enemies could bite dust) + FRA + POR + PRU against HAB + RUS.

3. So, basically every country left against HAB+RUS, that could not be either fun or any way near competitive. And that meant game end this session

4. So I moved thinking that FRA + PRU + NL + ENG against SPA + POR + HAB + OE could be more competitive to end the game. Specially since if FRA was very tired, NL + ENG were quite fresh (and able to put 800k armies in any given theater of operations).

So basically that was the idea. I didn't moved trying to get advantage for myself -as I said both Tem and K' I expected that NL + ENG could DOW us and basically, well, do what they did :D.

Well basically it is all true from one angle of perspective. However if you have taken another perspective maybe you would see that France was extremely tired from previous decades of war. If everybody left Rus and Aus they would simply have to peace because France needed to draw breath in peace.

But that didn't happen. KJ just wanted the war - Portugal joined Russia, Austria and Spain making it four on one before Prussia joined.

It was not more competetive. Especially not with NL and fleetless England resting for several years because England was unable to move Welli without NL. OE was also chasing some distant AI so he wasn't available. I mean; it was basically 3 vs 2 when you were in Franch alliance and then you changed side and made it 4 vs 1?! ??? *clap, clap*

As a matter of fact only England and Prussia were really on French side. NL chased its own benefit and you selflessy joined uber gang on dying France (WE 14!!!) to make things more interesting. You left a country with 14 WE in the middle of the gang and then declared war on it. On top of that your former ally really, objectively, desperately needed you. It's not like it wasn't important. Nah I really don't know what you were thinking!

K'shar said:
Wrong, to be honest the dutch DOW and recent acts made the situation even more untenable. He blocked England from helping me as he would like, he used the French fleet and then left it too be defeated, he vassalized nations that were targets for France and therefore protects them. He was supposed to neutralize the Iberian front and therefore advised tahtDavout pull away to help Prussia, and so he did. However, by peacing Spain-Port while my men were on the otherside of the globe he killed any initiative I had on that front. End Result = worse then Dutch neutrality and England being my actual ally as he ought to have been.

Aye, it was a shocker. NL said to us: 'concentrate on Ruskies and Austria, we'll take care of Iberians'. France moved most of its troops and suddenly NL peaced leaving open french front on that side. Welli and Nelson were suddenly powerless to help.

Since French armies moved towards Austria, France soon lost every gain it had previously won. It was back to square one in that theatre. Even worse from what I saw. I considered it hostile move of NL towards France. On the other hand Porto selflessly sacrificed itself just to continue with the linch on France. :D

All in all basically everybody made its contribution to the fall of France except Kwfinn who died in the attempt to help K'. Kw, bro, I know how you feel :D

Bottom line is; if you need four countries, several betrayals and two sabotages (OE and my inactivity counted here) to bring it down then you are incompetent :p

On the othe side of the war we have a very competent France, semi competent Prussia and England and completely incompetent NL which help actually hurt.

arcorelli said:
BTW, Cas, Tem did not win the game. No idea why people follow the 'whoever is strongest at the last session played won'. France dominated the game 200 years, a coalition of 4 countries was needed to bring to her knees. I do not know how it could be discussed that K' won the game.

(Fnuco, HG created Fritaly, Frengland and I believe Frutch some other game)

I agree with you wholeheartedly about K'shar complete victory but I think Cas made a sarcastic remark anyway. Basically Tem just used situation to his benefit. I could've vassalised Caslu 2 months later but the point was to entertain him long enough for France to recuperate. So he vassalised Spain and drowned France together with everybody else but that is really no accomplishment in my book.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(40258)

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Feb 18, 2005
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France can very well continue the war, now that the OE and NL are going to dow Russia.

Yes, TG, you know it and probably saw it coming since i revoked your MA in the OE.
The point is Russia(and prolly austria, should he invite KJ) must split their forces, whichwould lead to an easier situation for France in Central Europe. With NL and English rebel-bashing forces in mainland france, rebels should not be a problem.

That is why i think talks of premature ending of the game are useless. We can go on, nay, we MUST go on with another session.
 

arcorelli

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Nabukodonosor said:
It was not more competetive. Especially not with NL and fleetless England resting for several years because England was unable to move Welli without NL. OE was also chasing some distant AI so he wasn't available. I mean; it was basically 3 vs 2 when you were in Franch alliance and then you changed side and made it 4 vs 1?! ??? *clap, clap*.

Well, I did expected the OE to DOW actually. It was a surprise when they didn't DOW (I told Fnuco to DOW Russia to help France actually :p ). And I expected you to DOW earlier. So, I agree that my idea didn't worked -since the people I expected to DOW to make things more balanced didn't DOW. My FRA+NL+ENG+OE+PRU war against SPA+RUS+HAB+POR war didn't happened. But you can't blame me because other people didn't DOW :D

Nabukodonosor said:
Aye, it was a shocker. NL said to us: 'concentrate on Ruskies and Austria, we'll take care of Iberians'. France moved most of its troops and suddenly NL peaced leaving open french front on that side. Welli and Nelson were suddenly powerless to help.

Actually, you could had continued to crush Portugal. I was unable to withstand Welli+Nelson. You peaced independently in that case. Your greediness for Sjaelland left me free ;)

Without Portugal, Spain was vulnerable. After all, before your asault the main spanish army in Iberia was 80k!!

Nabukodonosor said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly about K'shar complete victory but I think Cas made a sarcastic remark anyway.

Not sure, there is a tendency to decide winners on last sessions standings.
 

arcorelli

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Fnuco said:
France can very well continue the war, now that the OE and NL are going to dow Russia.

The thing Fnuco, is that I doubt K' at this moment thinks that NL (or OE) are of real help. All french (and english) accounts is that NL screwed France today. So basically -I guess- he is thinking 'it doesn't matter if OE and NL DOWs, they will take a couple of provinces, then peace' and I will continue to fight SPA+POR+HAB+RUS.

Besides, I am starting to think that we are in the silly phase of the game, so I am not against ending now, declare IFR bigger country, discuss what we believe of the game (biggest mistakes, more daring moves, the funniest moment an the like).
 

unmerged(41172)

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Fnuco said:
We can go on, nay, we MUST go on with another session.

eh

arcorelli said:
Well, I did expected the OE to DOW actually. It was a surprise when they didn't DOW

Actually, you could had continued to crush Portugal. I was unable to withstand Welli+Nelson. You peaced independently in that case. Your greediness for Sjaelland left me free ;)

Without Portugal, Spain was vulnerable. After all, before your asault the main spanish army in Iberia was 80k!!

eh

arcorelli said:
Not sure, there is a tendency to decide winners on last sessions standings.

Last session is just a fragment in time. France was the public enemy and strongest country for ages. In the end, Tem used situation very well but it was the K' that created that situation. :D

I guess him vassalising you both together with OE is accomplishment after all but he just used fanatism of others :) Fanatisam fueled with France

So, all respect to Porto who can change outcome of the game, to NL for beeing in longest and most profitable expansion of but really all the world could see was France :rofl:

KJ ... lol - you are a terrible, terrible neighbour and I hope never to have you on my border but respect because you fight like hell. In fact it was you who created this madness against France :D Well, you marked this game with that chatolic conflict!
 

King John

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K'shar, you know that my claiming DOTF wasn't against the rules at any time in this game.


The rapid alliance shifting has been quite interesting. Not rabid for individual countries- most countries that shifted alliances only did so 1-2 in the last century, but in general its been a very intriguing atmosphere. Except for England and Prussia :p, tho Kw seemed to almost shift alliances once.

I don't think there's anything to be disgusted about. This is what happened in countries IRL, I find it rather interesting that the amount of change in foreign policies keeps changing at a level close to historic. The fact that its harder to trust allies will change the way the next game is played I'm sure- maybe we'll have to come up with a system of using hostage of some sort, like they did IRL to deal with this sort of thing.
 

Casluerj

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arcorelli said:
no idea how Cas thought it could defeat Nelson, he got some strange ideas some days

Yes, I said that when England had only less than 50 ships in total, NL had 700 ships and French fleet was blocked. At that time we toghether had more than the double of their Warships. And with my leader (3/6/4) and twice numbers, yes, we could have beaten Nelson.

When England more than triplicated the number of his fleet and somehow French fleet was still alive and merged with NL+ENG fleet it was a clear defeat.

It were you, however, who said that we should attack to try to prevent, in a desperate move, them to land in iberia. And I thought you were right... And was... I am not blaming you, but hardly we could win in Sea that time, but it was, indeed, our last chance.

arcorelli said:
BTW, Cas, Tem did not win the game

Never said that. I said that he won the war against me (and you) and "congratulate" him in the hard war that he bravely managed to win, just it.

Players that won "such wars" hardly gain my "winning medal" (that will probably go to K'shar, the one who really deserves it, in EGA5, IMHO).
 

unmerged(40258)

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Feb 18, 2005
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my ranking so far (considering we DO have another session to go, and it may change):

1. France
2. NL
3. Portugal
4. Austria
5. Russia
6. Spain
7. England
8. Prussia

Venice died, Poland and Sweden are considered dead.
 

King John

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Casluerj said:
Yes, I said that when England had only less than 50 ships in total, NL had 700 ships and French fleet was blocked. At that time we toghether had more than the double of their Warships. And with my leader (3/6/4) and twice numbers, yes, we could have beaten Nelson.

When England more than triplicated the number of his fleet and somehow French fleet was still alive and merged with NL+ENG fleet it was a clear defeat.

It were you, however, who said that we should attack to try to prevent, in a desperate move, them to land in iberia. And I thought you were right... And was... I am not blaming you, but hardly we could win in Sea that time, but it was, indeed, our last chance.



Never said that. I said that he won the war against me (and you) and "congratulate" him in the hard war that he bravely managed to win, just it.

Players that won "such wars" hardly gain my "winning medal" (that will probably go to K'shar, the one who really deserves it, in EGA5, IMHO).

You guys should've waited until after they dropped the troops to attack their fleets. Could've killed half their men due to lack of supply. Or else waited for Nelson to die :p.
 

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My rankings:

France
NL
Porto
Russia/OE
Spain
England/Prussia
 

Tem_Probe

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arcorelli said:
He told you to move Davout out? Tem, you are evil :D I actually, asked Tem if I could continue to fighting France and he said I could, that was the reason I didn't fought the vassalization actually.

My mistake, yeah. I offered France a choice: That I invade the eastern alliance, or the Iberians, but that I couldn't invade both at the same time. He asked me to sink your navies, and so I worked on that and told him to save Prussia instead of focussing on Iberia. I didn't really consider the implication of him leaving the front alone, or of me defeating Spain/Portugal rather quickly. I wasn't very social nor thoughtful today, I paid attention to logistics mostly.
 

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Fnuco said:
France can very well continue the war, now that the OE and NL are going to dow Russia.

Agreed. I won't make the same mistake vs Russia I did vs Spain.

Sorry K'shar. Yes, I invaded for my benefits, but I didn't realise it would cause you this much trouble, otherwise I would have occupied Spain a while longer.
 

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King John said:
The rapid alliance shifting has been quite interesting. Not rabid for individual countries- most countries that shifted alliances only did so 1-2 in the last century, but in general its been a very intriguing atmosphere. Except for England and Prussia :p, tho Kw seemed to almost shift alliances once.

I don't think there's anything to be disgusted about. This is what happened in countries IRL, I find it rather interesting that the amount of change in foreign policies keeps changing at a level close to historic. The fact that its harder to trust allies will change the way the next game is played I'm sure- maybe we'll have to come up with a system of using hostage of some sort, like they did IRL to deal with this sort of thing.

K'shar said:
Betrayels and backstabs in moderation are ok (and fun), but not on this scale, they are what they are, but to say that I can basically trust not a single persons solemn word looks bad, and that is the situation we have.

Everyting is good if used in moderate quantities. Use something too much and the best thing on the world will become ugly and disgusting.

EDIT: About my loyalty; sry guys - I tried to be as treacherous as I could. I changed all sides, used situation to my benefit many times and tried to be as fluid as I can. But the part of the problem is in my rasing and not by my mother of father but by the Kyokushin trainer. He insisted on codex and morale very much. In his words codex is what makes a man. Without it he is just a smart animal. Lion can also kill but it is a simple impuls. His explanation was very simple; when you are teaching someone more then one move just to gauge someone's eyes, you must be sure he won't use that.

If I had trained box so much I would probably try to hit every wall with my head just for the amusement of the sound. Also, I would probably be a bad person since I have an ugly temper. But the meaning of the word 'Kyokushin' can be translated as 'One truth' and it has many meanings. One of them is certainly 'one truth of how to be' or 'there is one way you can do everything right and many ways in which you can do all wrong' and also 'one way to be a man'. There are countless explanations, but Kyokushin masters claim meaning of that word changes with the time and accomplishment.

Since I'm a fan of Kyokushin, I try to live like that. It has often saved me from doing very bad things to my environment. :cool:

Again, maybe it doesn't matter here, and I was prolly not the good politician but after failing in economy as an economist nothing else really mattered :)
 
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arcorelli

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King John said:
You guys should've waited until after they dropped the troops to attack their fleets. Could've killed half their men due to lack of supply. Or else waited for Nelson to die :p.

The english got Cochrane afterwards ;)

Anyway, I thought it could better to go to our 'Trafalgar' than waiting outside.

Well, I am quite happy with Portugal. Managed to be the richest or the second richest for a long time, colonial holdings were always safe, got provinces here and there.

So, basically early XVI policy was:
a) Not to be a lap-dog of Spain. And be as independent as you can be (in particular, after I saw that Spain was not that useful to Austria; and that I was kind of treated as granted)
b) Manage to get India for yourself.
c) In colonial matters, try that everyone but English is successful. So I traded maps, granted MA, exchanged provinces, guaranteed provinces to everyone, but England never received any help.

In the XVII century:
a) NL was becoming more richer than us! So I decided to start the whole license business thinking that a) I could got access to other COTs simply granting licenses and b) NL was not that willing to pay. Of course, NL was granted free access to our COTs, since the idea was that they lost trade elsewhere.
No idea if that worked, but essentially -after 30 or 40 years- we were again in top position in trade. So we decided to stop the license business.
b) Going with France. Since they offered somethings, and well the spaniards never offered anything. So we got some med islands and Galicia (for some time).

And then, our most critical moment (and our best single moment): surviving the spanish onslaught at the end of the XVII century, getting the spanish slaughtered colonially whereas our mainland was completely invaded, and exchanging provinces in the end.

We always remembered that Spain when they thought could force peace asked not only for Galicia but for several mainland portuguese provinces, so we decided never to be complet and full spanish allies. Unfortunately, we were subbed at some times, some portuguese troops lost time defending Spain :D

But basically, we decided in the XVIII century to be friendly with NL (the only country that never had attacked us, or supported an attack on us) and be as opportunistic as we could be. So, the defence of the NL when France started the uber-long-war by Myoz was fully according to our idea. And then, we got a province from France (by K'shar mistake but in the end we convinced him to gave us the chinese province), 5 provinces from Russia, 2 from Poland, 2 from the OE, 2 from Spain. Nice things.

And then the last sesssion where I decided to forgot about rational policy and try to go for the game to end in 1819. Because switching sides was against all my ideas for end game actually (crippling Spain, attacking Russia and take all China).

So rankings:
FRA (obvious)
NL (NL with Baltic lands? that neither SWE, POL or RUS managed to take in the entire game? That is very good. And since it was a long-term gain, way more important that getting 4 vassals in the last session :p ).
HAB (basically for surviving fighting a bigger country for almost the entire game)
RUS (it could receive a higher ranking if they could had done something in the game, but they only appeared in the end, and actually lost most of their wars)
OE (they never quite managed to recover after the 'everyone got independent' disaster)
SPA (yep, they were rich -although for a long time, not that rich- and the like, but actually they lost all italian possesions, they lost all the gains that their betrayal of FRA gave them, they never quite got a good alliance with HAB when it mattered -at the early or middle game, unable to defeat POR on a 1-v-1 with all mainland POR in their hands,
POL (before we lost permanent, POL was going very nicely, and I do think it could had survived quite good in the end)
ENG (by managing to recover -well, they got quite nice leaders too in the end, but the revenge on Spain was nicely done)
PRU (it was, actually, more successful as BRA than as PRU, quite strange)
SWE (well, I do think that Joo abandoned earlier than needed since SWE was a middle range country)
VEN (ah, no idea why they traded with OE at the beginning, that will be always a mistery for me. The fact that SPA and HAB never managed to go along doomed their habsburg alliance, but of that they were innocent. Of their deal with OE, they were guilty)
 

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Nabukodonosor said:
Since I'm a fan of Kyokushin, I try to live like that. It has often saved me from doing very bad things to my environment. :cool:

Excellent advice for the RL, but this is a game ;)
 

King John

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I was just thinking, instead of playing HOI the next couple weeks, It'd probably be better to just start EGA6 right away, and save HOI sessions for the inevitable times we will lack a quarum for Eu2. Otherwise we'll just be wasting our time eventually.
 

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arcorelli said:
Excellent advice for the RL, but this is a game ;)

EDIT:Meh whereever you fight it feels good to have one flank safe :)

Nabukodonosor said:
Again, maybe it doesn't matter here, and I was prolly not the good politician

Aye it is a game and was a good one. Well politics sucks but we had the most intense game ever. Everything can be said of EGA5 but not that it was boring. In fact it was a great game.

Even overdose with renaissance politics and constant conflict. Basically I didn't belive anyone anything! (well, except Fra, but he was in such position that he couldn't afford one more enemy)

England had a hard ride through it. This was a world without English dominance but I didn't want to leave that poor island with first trouble. Later I didn't want to give it up at all :)

1. Fra - dominance
2. Aus - you are hell broke loose mate :D - you created one of the two most dominant blocks, and you marked this game with constant world war - in the end you survived even Nappy - second most influential country throughout the game
3. Tem - well u are unbelievably strong again - military and economy superpower with NL! (!?! :D )
4. Por - great, great Portugal
5. Spa - nightmare much like Aus
6. OE - nice but unlucky OE
7. Rus - well, great Russia in fact, but dormant for a long time
8. Pol - too bad you couldn't finish
9. Pru/Eng - lot of bad luck (and learn to earn money guys) with many strong neighbours
10. Swe/Ven - this is a war - someone must die :)

Over and out.
 
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