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K'shar said:
Dear Spanish King, I think that Spain already has a lot of COTs, hasnt it?? I think that if you take one more rich COT (like ganzhou in my proposal), it will be already good enough for your Majesty. About Sweden, he ga
ined the most richest prov and if he wants he can have the japanese one too.
My proposal gave one COT for each one ( malacca for England, Ganzhou to Spain and Shanghai to Sweden) as Ganges is other issue and it is to balance the power in India, that i am certainly that you ancestors always wanted... I had had always good relations with your fathers exaclty because the older Spanish Kings fought for Stabilyty and balance, because of that we almost forge an alliance to become the Police of Europe. But now Spain is becoming more and more greedy... I hope that the Spirit of the great spanish monarchs may influence you to go back to the right way.
You can be the strongest but while the other were happy you shall remain, but in the first moment that someone become unhappy with your policies only God knows what can happen with your supremacy. So plz lets return the good relationship that our ancestors had.
Cas, all your offers up till now where ludicrously unfair. They all benefited you to the extreme. I might consider supporting a movement to give Spain ganges and England Malacca, in light of Spanish possession of Goa and Zanzibar. This would give England 3 COT's in the area, and I doubt that with Siberia's colonization and the inevitable colonization of the Pacific, that Australia's COT and Kansai will remain very poor. I, however, cannot agree to the previous English demands that they receive 3 COTs (Ganges, Malacca, and Guangzhou), because it gives the Spanish nothing and only gives me one COT, and does not assign the COT at Kansai. That means that England would probably get Kansai, giving it 4 COTs from this deal. That's just ridiculous. I would still, however, be willing to ask Spain to consider allowing England to capture Malacca, as they are being asked to give up the historical English claim on Ganges. In the final analysis, the English demand to receive Ganges from this conference is totally ludicrous, it is plainly not in the English sphere of influence, which was never before said to extend any further than southeast Asia. Ganges is plainly in the Spanish sphere. Malacca is another matter, to be discussed between Spain and England, but I can see arguments for either side.
I propose to add the following to my previous proposal:
1) England will receive an annual stipend of 50 ducats from Sweden for 10 years, and a lump sum payment of 300 ducats at the end of that ten years. For a nation like Sweden, this is a not-inconsiderable sum.
2) Spain and Sweden will respect English dominance of North America, and will allow England access to their territories in the new world and India.
Also, Cas, I want to know how much exactly you have invested in Sweden...I feel bad about this argument, but you brought it upon yourself. I will, however, make some reparations, as stated above (though I may increase the amount).
I propose to add the following to my previous proposal:
1) England will receive an annual stipend of 50 ducats from Sweden for 10 years, and a lump sum payment of 300 ducats at the end of that ten years. For a nation like Sweden, this is a not-inconsiderable sum.
2) Spain and Sweden will respect English dominance of North America, and will allow England access to their territories in the new world and India.
Also, Cas, I want to know how much exactly you have invested in Sweden...I feel bad about this argument, but you brought it upon yourself. I will, however, make some reparations, as stated above (though I may increase the amount).
When i offered my last proposal i wouldnt have Malacca, ganzhou and Ganges!!!!!!!!! THis was to counter proposal spanish ask to have malacca!
My initial proposal was to give gangzhou to Spain, Shaghai for you and Malacca for me.
Once again Ganges is OUT OF QUESTION FOR GOD SAKE! You can have the so rich Kansai COT for you!
Think before say: The distribuition of COTs will be....
1) Goa, Zanzibar and Gangzhou to Spain
2) Malacca, Ganges and the Australian one( if i can consider this one
((()
3) Kansai and Shaghai for you that is a late colonial power and even this way will get the richest one.
If anyone of you (the Spanish or the Swedish kings) say that this proposal is unfair you are hypocritic and greedy.
I must remember that Spain already has a rich COT in America and soon a new one in Africa that may be yours will emerge...
This is the only proposal that England can consider as it is strongly fair and the nation that more win on this is not England but Spain who will hold rich COTs in Asia and one rich in America, while England will have only 2 rich COT and a ridiculy one ( 18d and completely isolated so anyone can give me trade tariffs is not a thing to consider, isnt it?). And
Sweden that is a late colonial power will be beneficited with Two wondeful COTs, while his others enemies are still restricted to Europe...
Final Point
My initial proposal was to give gangzhou to Spain, Shaghai for you and Malacca for me.
Once again Ganges is OUT OF QUESTION FOR GOD SAKE! You can have the so rich Kansai COT for you!
Think before say: The distribuition of COTs will be....
1) Goa, Zanzibar and Gangzhou to Spain
2) Malacca, Ganges and the Australian one( if i can consider this one
((() 3) Kansai and Shaghai for you that is a late colonial power and even this way will get the richest one.
If anyone of you (the Spanish or the Swedish kings) say that this proposal is unfair you are hypocritic and greedy.
I must remember that Spain already has a rich COT in America and soon a new one in Africa that may be yours will emerge...
This is the only proposal that England can consider as it is strongly fair and the nation that more win on this is not England but Spain who will hold rich COTs in Asia and one rich in America, while England will have only 2 rich COT and a ridiculy one ( 18d and completely isolated so anyone can give me trade tariffs is not a thing to consider, isnt it?). And
Sweden that is a late colonial power will be beneficited with Two wondeful COTs, while his others enemies are still restricted to Europe...
Final Point
CaptainBOB said:
It is hard to measure... it was almost 1000d given directly to imporve relationship to the option of Vassalization be accessible and the most important thing: My maps!!!! that can cost more than 4000d.
Cas...I can't see that your claim on Ganges is valid!! Where did this claim come from? I see Malacca, but not Ganges! India will be fairly balanced with France added into the mix, and Spain agreed to negotiate a treaty to give them a large portion of India. Plus, your empire in Indonesia will mean that you can project your strength towards India, so it is something of a non-issue. Either way, Sweden cannot accept the COT in Kansai, as the naval requirements of defending at least 3 major imperial areas are well beyond what Sweden's navy will be capable of for at least 100 years! I must have 2 land connected COTs, meaning Guangzhou and Shanghai. What is so wrong with that? England does have the necessary naval capacity. It can defend Kansai. And when you colonize the East Indies, you will almost certainly get another COT!! You are only counting COTs, look at the amount of colonizable, no conversions necessary territory you are getting! And it will almost certainly spawn a COT. Or at least make the Australian one ridiculously rich. Also, Zanzibar does not even feature in this discussion. While it is on the Indian Ocean, it is not even in Asia! My present opinion is that the COTs should be distributed like so:
England-Malacca, Kansai
Spain-Goa, Ganges
Sweden-Guangzhou, Shanghai
Now, to me, that seems fair enough. I hope you gentlemen can concur, but it seems that Cas has gone insane with the need to defend Ganges.
England-Malacca, Kansai
Spain-Goa, Ganges
Sweden-Guangzhou, Shanghai
Now, to me, that seems fair enough. I hope you gentlemen can concur, but it seems that Cas has gone insane with the need to defend Ganges.
Why my claims in Ganges is valid??? Do you want historical or game way? Well Historical, Calcutá was english colony for years and the principal english in India.
Game reason: To keep balance of power in India.
Spain - Goa and Gangzhou
England - Malacca and Ganges
Sweden - Shaghai and Kansai
Your argument that you cant defend your COTs is sand. If you can defend shaghai you can easily defend Kansai as they are very very close... I am not offering give you an american and an asian cot, but two COTs that are separate by 2 ocean spaces.
Game reason: To keep balance of power in India.
Spain - Goa and Gangzhou
England - Malacca and Ganges
Sweden - Shaghai and Kansai
Your argument that you cant defend your COTs is sand. If you can defend shaghai you can easily defend Kansai as they are very very close... I am not offering give you an american and an asian cot, but two COTs that are separate by 2 ocean spaces.
Casluerj said:
Didn't you just say earlier that smaller nations can purchase maps from their larger neighbors and then you come out and throw up a number of 4,000 for your maps. There is no way in the world that Venice can afford that price for any maps. Give me a break that is almost as ridiculous as these discussions regarding who gets what COT. Seems a bit like some of your are putting the cart before the horse.
Following a historical course of events is a bit ridiculous when most of the players are very well aware of the events that will be affecting them and what steps they can take to avoid or minimize said events. Making claims based on real life history in a game that has not followed a historic timeline is ridiculous and puts even more pressure and further reduces the role of people in nations other than the largest nations.
Sorry to alter the measurements of these negotiations, but Spain is getting rather tired of her present COTs, being considered in these deals. They are seperate and divisible from the current negotiations, and will not be henceforth included in them. Zanzibar and Goa, are spanish and do not limit our rightful prospects in these conferences. Do not presume to include them when limiting Spain to its claimants of agreed upon provinces. If you want those cots go ahead and attempt to conquer them.
Ad majorem Imperium gloriam,
Felipe II
Ad majorem Imperium gloriam,
Felipe II
Veilwalker, if venice wishes to negotiate with Spain for maps do so, we do not ask for such extreme costs as england does.
Veilwalker said:
Yes i said that smaller nations can purchase maps from larger nations, but of course for a price... This is what my maps worth for me... Think... a manufactory in the right place give you 12d and cost +1000d. If you colonize a prov you will gain at least 20d that can be increased over time... Add to this that you can colonize a lot of lands, so it will be a lot of manus, 4000d is or isnt reasoble?
K'shar said:
As Ganges is English, and it would be if I hadnt missed last session, so too dont enter in this discussion.
I am discussing the division of the 3 chinese COTs ( malacca, gangzhou and Shanghai) that could be one for each one. They are 3 rich cots that no one will lose in this negotiation, the one who get malacca will be as happy as the one who get gangzhou. Only Shanghai has some more money.
Cas...the argument about naval power is still valid here. The channel defends England from land invasion, but it is only one province across. Shanghai and Kansai are totally seperate entities if I ever face a naval power, and I lose a great deal of strategic depth if they must be defended seperately. I cannot accept such a result.
Please, England, accept my most recent proposal. It is still quite reasonable, and you will be close enough to India to affect events, and France, who is your ally, will actually be in India, as Spain has agreed to negotiate with the French king, who rightfully wishes to be included in this conference.
Why do you insist on keeping Ganges? It is not so important that you should have to create such a volatile situation over it. At our present rate, Spain and Sweden will be forced to come to some agreement seperately, as we have at least shown a willingness to negotiate while you have just restated the exact same thing again and again.
Please, England, accept my most recent proposal. It is still quite reasonable, and you will be close enough to India to affect events, and France, who is your ally, will actually be in India, as Spain has agreed to negotiate with the French king, who rightfully wishes to be included in this conference.
Why do you insist on keeping Ganges? It is not so important that you should have to create such a volatile situation over it. At our present rate, Spain and Sweden will be forced to come to some agreement seperately, as we have at least shown a willingness to negotiate while you have just restated the exact same thing again and again.
Casluerj said:
Wikipedia.org
"The British established their first outpost in South Asia in 1619 at Surat on the northwestern coast of India, arriving in the wake of Portuguese and Dutch visitors."
"Journey from British rule to Independence
The territory where Calcutta is now located came into the possession of the British East India Company in 1690 and dates its beginnings as a city from the construction of Fort William by the British in 1698. From 1858 to 1912, Calcutta was the capital of British India. From 1912 to India's Independence in 1947, it was the capital of all of Bengal. After Independence, Calcutta remained the capital of the Indian state of West Bengal."
Well, for now you can't claim something like you said.
balinus said:
Well if you say this, Spain cannot claim Malacca neither.... What i meant is that Calcuta was english so I, roleplaying, want it.
Bob, why discussing so much a issue that doesnt have discussion... Everything that you and the spanish King offered me until now was an insult...It's even get: England - Kansai and the australian one!!! uh!
This is my last proposal:
1) Spain will get Gangzhou and Shaghai
2) England will get Malacca and Ganges
3) Sweden will get Shanghai and I give to Sweden my australian COT for 75 years.
Now Spain will be getting 2 COTs, keeping their older (Goa and Zanzibar), holding a total of 6 COTs (+andalusia and the aztec one)
England will be getting 2 COTs, holding a total of 3 COTs (+anglia)
Sweden will be getting 2 COTs, holding a total of 3 COTs ( considering the one in Stockholm that you appear soon).
I cant go down on this. So if you guys dont accept this treaty i cant continue this ocnversation and i'll act for my own. I've been now the max i can go ceding my COT to sweden, having now only 50% of what Spain has. So plz consider really well this proposal, King of Spain and King of Sweden.
Spain will get Shanghai?
Sweden will get Shanghai?
Seems like the same cot to me, you?
Sweden will get Shanghai?
Seems like the same cot to me, you?
I'm sorry, but I will have to quit this game, there are just too many time conflicts.
Casluerj said:
The only arrangement I am willing to honour amongst our three nations is to extend the land Spain already owns in the far east. Ganges and Malacca would be our first choice for simplicity of control. If this is not possible Malacca and guangzhou, will suffice, as we already have provinces connecting those cots.
K'shar said:
Ok... then this could be...
Spain Gangzhou and Malacca
England Ganges and Kansai
Sweden Shanghai and Australian one...
Uh!!! Finally we have agreed....phew... almost sunday