europeans in the american civil war

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
First of all the south had 800,000 men enlisted in it's armed forces, 90% of the abled body white men of military age. So casulties on the scale you are putting forward are absurd. Also if your fantasy of European intervention by Britain and France were to come to pass, you must reckon with intervention by the very pro-union Russians whom we were extremly friendly with at the time.

Oops Im not familiar with the actual size of the armies of the South or the Union so I just made up numbers that sounded fairly reasonable to me. Also why I added the "700000-1.4mil.

And regarding who would join and who wouldnt join a European Alliance,
If the Netherlands were a supporter of the CSA then make it some other fairly insignificant (not trying to offend any insignificant nations nationalists) that declares war on England. The point I was trying to convey was that some of the great powers of Europe recognize the south, some other little European nations get in the way and the ACW falls into trench warfare.

But if Russia was to join on the side of the Union, the whole situation would change. Not going to say that because then I beleive the war turns out to look a bit too much like World War .5

 

[Spruce]

Originally posted by TC Pilot
If you read any book about the Civil War, recognition by the European powers meant war's over. There shouldn't be any dispute on that, unless you have absolutely no knowledge of the political condition at that time. The U.S. couldn't survive fighting in the South and in the North (if the British attacked from Canada). Also, at that time, navies were put into much higher regard than they are now. The U.S. navy (which consisted of about 10 coastal ships in 1861) was no match for the navies of Europe. European weapons were the of the highest quality. The union Lincoln barely managed to keep together during the war would have been obliterated. There would have been no chance of victory for the U.S. if Europe got involved.

correct! The Union fleet at the beginning of the war was nothing! Now, the Union went mad at building ships and buying them, by the end of 1861 the Union had bought more then 130 ships...

So after some time, the chance the european power got involved in a naval war against the Union is becoming smaller and smaller. Also due to the wrong confederate policy on cotton - threathening the Britisch. They shouldn't have threatened the Britisch.

But in any case a blockade breaker fleet of both Britisch and French ships seems to be possible to me. But only when the South is recognised by France and Britain.

But a naval offensive operation against union ports doesn't seem an option to me.

When the blockade is stopped, the confederates will get a big benefit for their troop deployment management. And the Union draft readiness will be much lower, forcing Lincoln to pass on his unpopular acts...

 

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Great Britain had more gambling on directly helping out the CSA with troops and an invasion then just some prestige. Russia was rabidly anti-slavery and pro-union, not to mention the Irish, and the Germans. Also becuase of very very low crop yields in Great Britain in 1860-1862 meant that they relied heavily on grain crops from........ you guessed it the USA (North), with no gaurantee of a quick war or easy invasion, they may have been starved and forced to fight a powerful enemy, and possibly a larger one in the East.

 

[unmerged(1973)]

Originally posted by TC Pilot
If you read any book about the Civil War, recognition by the European powers meant war's over.

You can't have read many serious books about the civil war. Check out Dean Mahins excellent book "One war at the time"

 

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Maybe we dont need to read books, we (me at least) will change history so much as possible

 

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European intervention in the American Civil War is a difficult topic, and it is impossible to say for sure what would have happened.

If Britain were to side with the CSA openly, the war would have been more difficult for the North. The blockade would have been punched through, but not annhilated as some have said, but the USN could have prevented any major landings of British troops in America. Remember that in 1812, the USN defeated the RN on several occaisions.

The US army was huge. There were more than enough guys available to fight the south, and many man would have been available to defend against a British invasion from Canada. Remembe again, that the British army was very small, England relying heavily on the 'Wooden Wall' for defense.

The US even had enough manpower and industrial capability to continue work on the trans-continental railroad during the war, while exploring Alaska, building factories and rail lines, and drafting hundreds of thousands.

European intervention would have certainly not defeated public morale at home, but would rather have intensified the sometimes-sketchy sentiment towards the war into a repeat of the previous wars against the British.

Additionally, the British would have had to worry about other European powers intervening. France may not have wanted Britain to gain a powerful ally in the CSA. Prussia may end up suppporting the large German population in the North, the Irish may increase the amount of damage they perpetually do mostly to themselves in Ulster, the Russians may have objected to what could have been seen as British re-colonialism.

European intervention was exceedingly unlikely, but even if it had happened, it would have been an instant death knell for the Union, as many people seem to think. The war would have dragged on, and while the outcome may have been different, I see that as very unlikely.

Steele

 

[SecondReich]

If the British would have helped the Confederacy win the war, the USA would not be quite as powerful as it is today, and would most likely have a constant enemy on its southern border. Therefore, the European powers most likely would have stayed in charge.

 

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If the South somehow existed till today then Europe would either be Russian or German, the bad kinds.

But realy even if the Americans were foced to give up the South then what prevents another war in the future ? Especialy during WW1.

 

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Oh and Re:British Forces.
Cardwell Army reforms didnt start till 1870...
While the French were kind of busy in Europe...