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Imfamous Warmonger
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so i have read a lot about people wanting to take sides (mostly join the confederates) during the american civil war. the only thing is that i cant figure out what they would hope to achieve, except delay the war and give the south a slightly better chance of retaining its independence.

for starters, simply shipping supplies, guns, and uniforms is not enough. the longer the war lasted the less chance the confederates had of winning, guns dont matter if you no longer have troops to fire them.

the union navy was by no means pathetic, so even getting shipments of anything to the confederates would be risky business, more probly sinking then actually reaching safe shores.

a european nation would actually have to send soldiers to the americas if it wanted to insure that it wasnt wasting its time with the south, meaning those soldiers would face the same dangers from the union navy that the supplies would.

how many men would it take to make a difference? i would say the south would of needed between another 100,000 to 200,000 well supplied men if it desired to fight past 1865. to actually win freedom for the confederacy? they would of needed some 500,000 men.

the union could easily temp your european neighbors into attacking you since you have no just emptied your homeland of its defenses. and imagine how long it would take to have your soldiers return home from the americas when they have to fight through two navies instead of just one.

and, even if you succeed in helping the south achieve its independence, what does anyone expect to gain from it? i doubt the south would of allowed any european ally to retain land in the americas, even at the cost of its own freedom. if you did try to retain land, it would be worthless because of its unstablility. and whos to say that the north doesnt just crush the south in another war a few years down the road, are you going to be able to bail them out every time?

plus, having the confederacy as an ally would not give any european nation any type of significant advantage. it would actually hamper you because the north did most of the overseas trading.

so, it actually leaves only two options. the british could attack from canada, or the mexicans could attack into the west. either option doesnt seem very helpfull since both places are a far way from washington.
 

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KrisKannon - That is a very interesting & well thought-out post. I suspect that some people would want to help the confederacy out of a desire to help the underdog & change history (making the CSA similar to EU2's Byzantium). IMHO, only the British & maybe the French could have viably intervened in the Civil War, primarily because only those two states (particularly the British) would have had the naval power to open lines of communication to the CSA. I'm not sure that the Brits would have had to directly land troops in the CSA to support them - a diversionary attack from Canada might have pulled enough Union troops out of the southern front to allow the CSA to string together some quick victories. However, considering the size of the Union army vs. the size of the British army, it is more likely that it would have been the Union army going on the offensive. Would Britain have been willing to risk Canada in exchange for the CSA? The risks of intervention are substantial, and the rewards uncertain. Breaking up what would become the leading industrial power by 1914 does have some merits, but even a US without the South would have still been a major power (most of the industries, manpower, & resources were in the North). Do the British want to be worrying about a still-upset USA when they are focussing on the Germans?

Intervention is tempting but, as you pointed out, the rewards may not be worth the risks.
 

Galleblære

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Kris, you forget all the internal troubles in the Union. I would say that the chances of the south grew for every day they held the Union back.
 

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Also don't forget that both France and Britain would have faced significant domestic opposition to a policy of aiding the Confederacy, not only from the political backlash of sending troops to another continent to fight in an age that had never experienced true intercontinental warfare, but also the domestic opposition to allying with a nation that continued to cling to the institution of slavery.

Consider also that the Union did not mobilize anywhere near it's manpower potential during the war. In the presence of a foreign threat, it would have been easier for the Lincoln government to mobilize a greater percentage of this manpower potential with much less domestic unrest resulting. A war against Britain and France would likely have buried the Copperhead element in a wave of patriotism, reducing the political opposition to Lincoln's re-election in 1864.
 

TC Pilot

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If the British or French recongnized the Confederacy and intervened, it would instantly mean the war's over. This was the goal of Lee's 1st and 2nd invasions of the North. If he ahd won at either Antietam or Gettysburg, Europe would have recognized the CSA and the North wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.

Despite what it may seem, the US was not a strong country at that time and was not even close to a match for England/France. But in hindsight, if the Confederacy actually became independent, it would have been economicly ruined later on, with the crop failures etc. I guess we just have to wait and see for what's in the game.
 

unmerged(2238)

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Originally posted by TC Pilot
If the British or French recongnized the Confederacy and intervened, it would instantly mean the war's over.

It would have? How so? Explain. I mean, I guess the British could have broken the blockade, so that's a big issue, but... I'm curious what your reasoning is. I'm not trying to deny that it was very important for the confederacy to have European recognition, but I'm curious how you figured that the war is over.

Edit: I guess the key here is intervened. But I think the likelihood of that was far more remote than recognizing the confederacy...
 

unmerged(18885)

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I believe if a number of European countries publically recognized the Confederacy, the North would have begun to loose support at home. People may start to see the war as futile and if it was successful, the political ramifications would be the same if it outright annexed Mexico or any other independent nation i.e. The North would be considered the aggressor (The War of Northern Aggression)

In game, maybe the prestige of the US should plummet if the Europeans recoginze the South and the North annexes them. Or maybe this should provoke war with Europe. Either way, if Europe recognizes the CSA, the North is pretty much out of luck.
 

TC Pilot

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Well, at that time, Britain or France recognizing the Confederacy is like the U.S. recognizing a country now. The U.S. was an extremely weak country in the 1860s. If you read alot of Civil War books, you start to understand the importance of European recognition is. It's pretty hard to explain, but the general feeling during the Civil War was if Europe recognizes the CSA as it's own sovereign country, it wins.

I also don't think slavery was really that much of an issue. Although most of the animosities leading up to the Civil War wre rooted in slavery, it wasn't what people were fighting for. Slaves in the South rushed to recruitment stations to defend their homes, Jefferson Davis proposed that they draft 100,000 blacks into the army in exchange for their freedom. The Emancipation Proclamation refered to areas of the country that the Union didn't have control over, and it was the EP, but the 13th Amendment of the Constitution that abolished slavery.
 

Ming

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Originally posted by TC Pilot
Well, at that time, Britain or France recognizing the Confederacy is like the U.S. recognizing a country now. The U.S. was an extremely weak country in the 1860s. If you read alot of Civil War books, you start to understand the importance of European recognition is. It's pretty hard to explain, but the general feeling during the Civil War was if Europe recognizes the CSA as it's own sovereign country, it wins.

I also don't think slavery was really that much of an issue. Although most of the animosities leading up to the Civil War wre rooted in slavery, it wasn't what people were fighting for. Slaves in the South rushed to recruitment stations to defend their homes, Jefferson Davis proposed that they draft 100,000 blacks into the army in exchange for their freedom. The Emancipation Proclamation refered to areas of the country that the Union didn't have control over, and it was the EP, but the 13th Amendment of the Constitution that abolished slavery.

This "rush" you speak of was really only a few groups of free negres who formed militia companies in border states and places like Tennessee, (virtually none of these saw combat) To the southerners, arming slaves was as unthinkable as converting to Islam.


AS to intervention, neither England nor France (and I doubt even if they worked togther) Could have defeated the US anytime after 1861.
 
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Johnny Canuck

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Originally posted by Ming
AS to intervention, neither England nor France (and I doubt even if they worked togther) Could have defeated the US anytime after 1861.

I wouldn't go that far. The Royal Navy could have defeated the US navy at any point during the Civil War - the US warships were of poor quality & designed solely for coastal operations. The Brits could have imposed a blockade on the Union just as tight as the blockade the Union imposed on the South. Land combat would likely have been an entirely different story, but in terms of naval combat at least there was never any real doubt as to British superiority.
 

mauzzer

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A good reason to intervene would be 'balance of power' like the britisch liked it.. Not cheap cotton or anything like that.

2 seperate America states with their own government and opinions would have drasticly influenced the political situations in the centuries after the civil war... and even today..

Maybe for the worse, maybe for the better.. who can tell.


(when I finaly get my hands on this game and lock myself up for a week I'm sure as hell gonna intervene as Holland, building a massive fleet, denying belgiums independence and 14 hour workdays should make it possible:)
 
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I belive there was quite a lively thread about this exact topic a couple weeks/months back.
 

Ming

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
I wouldn't go that far. The Royal Navy could have defeated the US navy at any point during the Civil War - the US warships were of poor quality & designed solely for coastal operations. The Brits could have imposed a blockade on the Union just as tight as the blockade the Union imposed on the South. Land combat would likely have been an entirely different story, but in terms of naval combat at least there was never any real doubt as to British superiority.

I didn't mean to imply that the US could have defeated the UK (or even France) I merely stated that The UK and France could not defeat the US. Naval superiority is one thing, but being able to project a victory over the United states is another story.

I don't think the UK could have blockaded the US 'as tight as the blockade the Union inmposed on the south.' The US navy wasn't that bad off, and was ahead of Europe in terms of Ironclad technology.

The variable is whether or not the US had the political will to carry on the struggle.
 

Ming

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Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
But ironclads aren't much help to the Union Navy on the high seas....

But they're just right for blockade breaking.
 

King

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Originally posted by Ming
The US navy wasn't that bad off, and was ahead of Europe in terms of Ironclad technology.

I find that hard to believe. The first Ironclads appeared during the Civil War in 1862, while the British and French had already used them during the Crimea.
 

unmerged(9895)

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Originally posted by Galleblære
Kris, you forget all the internal troubles in the Union. I would say that the chances of the south grew for every day they held the Union back.


I dont think that this actually helped out the south, because they had more internal issues than the north by far. not everyone in the south agreed that slavery was usefull, or that secceding was wise. during the war states and armies would surrender to the union while others continued to fight. Lee surrendering to Grant was the end of the war technically, because from that point on there was no point in resisting for most others. That is not to say that no more battles were fought after the surrender of the army of northern virginia. the confederate government fled the state and continued to issue commands to its generals while on the run, but most of these orders were being sent to generals who wished to do nothing more than follow Lee's example. Besides all this, most of the south was ravaged by the union armies, and the soldiers who were still alive were drastically under supplied.

no, i think that time was actually on the side of the north.

not sure about this, but i think the north only really faced big internal issues early on in the war (battles of bull run, antienem, chancellorsville) . people were supprised about the numbers of deaths with such little results. that is why the emancipation proclimation had such a great impact. it basically united the union to fight untill the job was finished , no matter the cost to the north or south.
 

unmerged(9895)

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Originally posted by Ming
I didn't mean to imply that the US could have defeated the UK (or even France) I merely stated that The UK and France could not defeat the US. Naval superiority is one thing, but being able to project a victory over the United states is another story.

I don't think the UK could have blockaded the US 'as tight as the blockade the Union inmposed on the south.' The US navy wasn't that bad off, and was ahead of Europe in terms of Ironclad technology.

The variable is whether or not the US had the political will to carry on the struggle.


i would have to totally agree with this. with the current military and naval technology, any european nation would hardly be able to claim more than a beach head or two before their armies were so outnumbered they would be forced to surrender.

the only chance would be for england to stockpile troops (over half a million would be needed to defeat the usa) in canada and invade in the spring time and hope that by fall they had pushed far into the states so they wouldnt be left for dead during the winter. the union had a very large population spread out from minnesota to maryland, i cant imagine any force being able to take it all.
 

Pwyll

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As in the Revolutuion...the reasons for Britain to persecute a war with the North would have been fairly unpopular amongst the common man. It would have amounted to Britain defending slavery...a barbaric act ( trading in slaves )that it had abolished 50 years before.

I dont think any Government at the time would have remained in power.