European Union or Disunion?

[unmerged(6429)]

This is just to provoke a discussion, and with so many Europeans in the house, I'm looking forward to the answers

Does the existance of the European Union actually encourage disunion in its members, by providing a safe political and economic environment for small countries that might have a hard time surviving alone?

I'm thinking of such regions as Bretagne, Provence, the Basque, Northern Italy, Corsica, Scotland, Catalonia, etc. etc.

 

[Demagog]

Befria skåne från stockholm.

 

[unmerged(3440)]

Catalunya could very well survive With O Without the EU/Spain

 

[Forrad]

I'm sorry, but I haven't quite caught the meaing behind this thread. Since none of these 'regions' are not fully independent (with the possible exception of self-governing Scotland), they aren't surviving in the first place. Sorry if i've misunderstood your question but your explanation wasn't the best.

 

[unmerged(4217)]

Does the existance of the European Union actually encourage disunion [/B]

Yes.

I'm thinking of such regions as Bretagne, Provence, the Basque, Northern Italy, Corsica, Scotland, Catalonia, etc. etc. [/B]

Don't forget Flanders!

 

[unmerged(2082)]

Originally posted by Forrad
I'm sorry, but I haven't quite caught the meaing behind this thread. Since none of these 'regions' are not fully independent (with the possible exception of self-governing Scotland), they aren't surviving in the first place. Sorry if i've misunderstood your question but your explanation wasn't the best.

I think he meant that those regions might get a much easier time today if they were ever to separate.
Reason behind this being, that the EU is making the mother countries useless for a number of reasons.
The large resource taking projects, is slowly turning into EU matters, so that a small region can go independnt and still get the benefits from these.
Also the EU have secured the stability of the continent, and thereby also securing the smaller nations.
Thus making the protection of the mother country useless.
Am I right about this assumption Grinch ?

 

[unmerged(6116)]

Hey hey , i just saw the movie Grinch ...
I really don't understand the Basque or Catalonian issue as they are the most developed regions of Spain and people have better conditions to live, they already have autonomy, so why the existence of separatist groups?

 

[Ebusitanus]

There is no other future for Europe but a Federal Union on the long term. Any pseudo nationalistic tendencies of wanna-be nations while should be ecouraged in a cultural-linguistic sense (Well, I don't include Leonese.. in oder to enrich our milenia historic baggage, they should never be allowed anything as destabilizationist as an independent or a la par as current existing nations. We have to aim for a Europe of the Nations that will take care of allowing expresion for any historic groups, but within our Gross Europe.
Europa or bust.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

Yep Grinch. One very likely development is that Europe will turn into a Europe of regions, where the importance of the nation-states will fade vis-à-vis EU.
In some ways I guess it can be compared to Europe in the middle ages where local lords and the Pope had very much to say, while the power of kings was weak. And that - IMHO - is not necessarily a bad thing.

Regards,

EoE

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Falcão
I really don't understand the Basque or Catalonian issue as they are the most developed regions of Spain and people have better conditions to live, they already have autonomy, so why the existence of separatist groups?

It actually makes the most sense for the more prosperous areas to want to secede since by being under the same government as poorer regions, they would pay more in taxes to the central government than they'd receive back, whereas the opposite would be true for the poorer regions.

 

[Dark Knight]

I was just (finally) able to delete four over-the-top posts and so am reopening this thread. Please try to keep your comments civil.

 

[unmerged(5678)]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
I was just (finally) able to delete four over-the-top posts and so am reopening this thread. Please try to keep your comments civil.

Glad you've taken this course of action DK, it's an interesting topic and didn't deserve to be ruined

 

[unmerged(592)]

I summarize:

- EU is the only way for Europe to survive
- Regions will increase in relevance as opposed to federal districts and States who will lose power
- This is the most effective way. The nation-state usually is too large to care about local/regional issues and to small to effectivly do something to the global/multinational level of problems.

 

[unmerged(5678)]

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor
I summarize:

- EU is the only way for Europe to survive
- Regions will increase in relevance as opposed to federal districts and States who will lose power
- This is the most effective way. The nation-state usually is too large to care about local/regional issues and to small to effectivly do something to the global/multinational level of problems.

Intresting argument SoleSurvivor - almost a vision, but a few questions:

Where will this leave nations states? Will the concept of "France" disappear?

What about regions which do not think of themselves as regions. Catalonia and Wales are easily identifiable. They are clearly distcinct from their neighbours. But what about the south-east of England or the Ile de France?

Personally I'd like to see a strong EU, but the price of this is democratisation and an honest assessment of the furure from our leaders

 

[unmerged(3440)]

I really don't understand the Basque or Catalonian issue as they are the most developed regions of Spain and people have better conditions to live, they already have autonomy, so why the existence of separatist groups?

There isen't an [important] separatist group in Catalunya.

In the Basque Country, ETA survived the transition to democracy because their menbers in jail weren't liberated as all the other political prisoners.

Now, after 25 years of nationalistic governemnt, the young people has grown in the Ikastolas (the Basque school were they are taught how the Basques did the Reconquista by themselves, colonized Iceland, discovered America...(I wouln't be surprised if one of this days they 'discover' Neil Armstrong was a Basque)). This young people are ready to join the kale borroka, the street violence, and once they become adults, they enter ETA to fight for the freedom of Euskal Herria, opressed by the Spanish and French states (they don't know or don't care the Basque COuntry has one of the greates amounts of autonomy in the world). The 'moderated' nationalists of the PNV are even worse. They are a bunch of hypocrytes, always speaking about self determination. I bet if tomorrow the central government offers them the independence they would refuse. They just use that as a blackmail to get tons of money from the rest of Spain (yes, surprisingly, the Basque COuntry spends more money than they produce). Actually, it is proved that the PNV doens't have a plan for the day after the independence. If it would happen, it would be the social and economical chaos. And then ther is the issue of Navarra. The nationalists say Navarre is a part of the Basque Country. They are 'invading' them culturally. The UPN (Union of the Navarran People), a Navarran regional party, elected by the people, is one of the targets of ETA because they are "españolistas" (i.e. they don't agree with thei vision of Euskal Herria).

In conclusion, I think Spain would declare its independence from the Basque politicians. I'm hasta los cojones of the Basque Country. I'm sorry to say this because the Basques as a people are great, but their politicians are like a cancer.

My two pesetas

 

[celedhring]

Originally posted by Gorion


There isen't an [important] separatist group in Catalunya.

Not entirely true. Although there isn't a political formation that englobes the separatist movement (because they range from christian democrats to downright anarquists), in the last CIS poll, 35% of catalans interviewed declared to be in favour of Catalan independence (something that even surprised me).

 

[unmerged(3440)]

I was talking about separatist groups that use violence (like ETA).

 

[Keynes]

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor
I summarize:

- EU is the only way for Europe to survive
- Regions will increase in relevance as opposed to federal districts and States who will lose power
- This is the most effective way. The nation-state usually is too large to care about local/regional issues and to small to effectivly do something to the global/multinational level of problems.

Right on target.

The nation-state evolved because it was useful form of organization for the purposes of defense and economic development. But the nature of contemporary security threats and economic problems has rendered the nation-state obsolete. Federative structures like the EU are the next stage of evolution, as are attempts to replace the anarchic structure of international relations with Grotian international law.

The evolution of the EU will not eliminate French culture or English culture, etc. -- these will survive because they the essential to people's sense of personal identity. They will lose their political character. There is no rational reason to be upset about this. The desire for peace, security and prosperity is universal; there is no e.g. "Italian" sense of peace as opposed to "Spanish"

The regions will not become "independent" per se but regional indentity is likely to assume a higher profile. Historically the project of nation-building in the past two centuries involved the deliberate suppression of regional cultures. E.g. in France, the republicans suppressed Occitan and Breton, imposed a national school curriculum and generally discouarged traditional displays of regional feeling. To a certain extent, the weakening political significance of the nation state will undo this artificial situation and increase Breton, Corsican, etc. indentity. As I indicated before though, French culture will continue to be dominant inside of France even as the political significance of the nation-state recedes.

 

[The Larch]

About this debate on potentially seccesionist regions of Europe, I just want to throw this for your information:

- A region that separates from a EU country and becomes independent doesn't belong to the EU.
- The EU wouldn't avail a process of self determination in one of it's members, as it would imply that in this country democratic liberties aren't guaranteed, in which case the EU would have to expell this country from the Union.
- The incorporation of one of this newly formed independent states in the EU would be really hard, as it would require an unanimous decission by the EU members (included their former "overlords").

For more information, you can check this article (sorry, it's in spanish):
The costs of independence

Bye, The Larch.

 

[unmerged(234)]

Originally posted by Emperor Gupta
Intresting argument SoleSurvivor - almost a vision, but a few questions:

Where will this leave nations states? Will the concept of "France" disappear?

No but is will loose a loot of its power. Today most people main geograpichal identifer are the "nations state" they belong to, secondary region or continenet. in the future the three concept Europe, Frenchman and Pariser(?)will probly be of more equal value.

What about regions which do not think of themselves as regions. Catalonia and Wales are easily identifiable. They are clearly distcinct from their neighbours. But what about the south-east of England or the Ile de France?

The greater London-area and the greater Paris-area yes? They are both clearly distingished from the less central area of ther empires.

Personally I'd like to see a strong EU, but the price of this is democratisation and an honest assessment of the furure from our leaders

EU would be well served if it for once got a commisson and bureucrats more interested in the good of the Union in lining there own pockets with money, yes. And politicans wich the nerve to keep even there own partybrothers responsible for corruption or missmanagment.