European MP game - DEG 3

[unmerged(40973)]

rares

I think we should be carefull with putting more rares in the running game. Rares is and should be hard to get for most countries. And according to the houserules both US and USSR is supposed to trade fair with the axis in peacetime. It stunns me to see that neither Germany, Italy and Japan asked for any deals with the US when they knew they could get it.

 

[juv95hrn]

Basically both options suck, and I seriously doubt any German player is willing to give up 25 rares for these minor nations. This leads to them being more or less worthless, with their infantry being stuck at 1918 levels throughout the game, and suffering from gigantic TC penalties. Basically it prevents these nations from playing any kind of role in the long run.

Isn't it ironic that this is an extraordinary historical description of the real situation?

You forgot a third alternative. Since they are so worthless as they are (!?) they could be overrun and used for more IC and resources for Germany as was quite beneficial in HOI1 although I would not recommend this.

In summary I think there are quite a few AI nations that suffer from exactly the same problem as you descibe but I don't think Germany should have a "perfect" quota for their future potential allies need of resources. To my knowledge the CW nations had much less problems acquiring enough resources during the war and I didnt have time to check wether they do but I will check this during the week.

Since its likely to hurt the uberstrong USSR anyway I dont mind the edits. Any thoughts on house rules for placement of axis satellites. Historically they only fought on the Eastern front...

 

[unmerged(21817)]

I think we should be carefull with putting more rares in the running game. Rares is and should be hard to get for most countries. And according to the houserules both US and USSR is supposed to trade fair with the axis in peacetime. It stunns me to see that neither Germany, Italy and Japan asked for any deals with the US when they knew they could get it.

Well I think it is kind of unhistorical for Germany to trade with the US, besides I think trade eff is about 10% between us, we are going to trade with USSR though if they make decent proposals, (as opposed to offering 100 energy for 25 rares 25 oil and 15 money).

I see problems with giving away too much rares too, however let us remember what rares were important for:

Rubber: Tanks
Rare Metals : Advanced Airplanes (mostly)

So the minors who won't build any of those really shouldn't have a problem with being low on rares.

Even with the edits Germany will run a deficit of at least 50 rares in not too long, which is 100IC thats quite a lot if we add the need to start supplying all minors it could easily go up. Why not put it to a vote though?


But on another note, great session, Apologies to SU and US who possible had quite a boring session, Things will spark in not to long I think

 

[juv95hrn]

I checked out what the CW and France were doing. The CW is doing ok resourcewise but have an obsession for building naval bases. Might be a good thing for the US later still I'd prefer units.

If we can manage to recruit more players to the next session I would appreciate a human France to take some of the task burden of the UK and make it possible to increase speed somewhat. This player could move elsewhere after Vichy/conquest of Continental Europe.

 

[unmerged(40103)]

Nice and stable session yesterday.

It stunns me to see that neither Germany, Italy and Japan asked for any deals with the US when they knew they could get it.

Italy has a better trade efficiency with other countries.

To fix this I suggest giving them free rares in the same way the other Axis are currently getting them. For balancing reasons I also think that they should get free steel as well. I suggest the following:
Slovakia: 7 rares 15 steel
Hungary: 5 rares
Romania: 9 rares 5 steel
Bulgaria: 1 rares 5 steel

This might overpower them a little, although I admit that especially Romania losing 2/3 of their IC leaves them underpowered, so some kind of intermediate way would be better. And of course Hungary only researching ships is ridiculous.

 

[Minodrin]

Well, the Germans could ask for trade-deals...
I just randomly gave offers in hope to provoke interest. I am willing to trade energy, steel, oil and rares in return for supplies.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

This might overpower them a little, although I admit that especially Romania losing 2/3 of their IC leaves them underpowered, so some kind of intermediate way would be better. And of course Hungary only researching ships is ridiculous.

Well, I don't realy see how they would be overpowered if you just let them run their industry on full effect. It's not like these nations will be pumping out turbojet fighters, it's still going to be mostly 1936 and 1939 level infantry. Keep in mind that Germany must still supply them with energy (as well as steel and energy to Italy). Also I'm not suggesting this simply so that my side can win the current game (we'll win anyway, trust me ). Next game hopefully most players will switch sides, and would you honestly want to ally with these historical Axis minors if you knew they would either suck beyond all reason, or you would have to feed them loads of rares and steel that Germany doesn't even have?

As it is now it is sort of like in HoI1 (as Juv pointed out): the best thing for Germany is to just DOW these nations and take their resources and IC for themselves. According to my calculations the Germans would get (net) 13 rares, 20 oil, 38 steel, 58 energy per day, and either 36 IC and no manpower or 21 IC and about 25 MP per year, depending on ministers. That's a lot better than having them supply you with 50 or so units of cavalry and 1918 infantry, and it's a lot better than feeding them with 25 rares and steel per day. Oh well, I guess if this is what we want then fine, but it feels a bit like UK annexing Canada and Australia since they would otherwise suck and provide them with nothing.

 

[unmerged(40103)]

Well, I don't realy see how they would be overpowered if you just let them run their industry on full effect. It's not like these nations will be pumping out turbojet fighters, it's still going to be mostly 1936 and 1939 level infantry. Keep in mind that Germany must still supply them with energy (as well as steel and energy to Italy).

You're right, they won't be overpowered as separate nations. I didn't put my thoughts into the right words. What I should have said is that Axis and potential Axis would get too many free rares. As Friedl has pointed out before and I agree, is that rares were not the biggest problem for the Axis. But giving too many free rares to the Axis without compensation for their opponents might unbalance the game favouring the Axis.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

You're right, they won't be overpowered as separate nations. I didn't put my thoughts into the right words. What I should have said is that Axis and potential Axis would get too many free rares. As Friedl has pointed out before and I agree, is that rares were not the biggest problem for the Axis. But giving too many free rares to the Axis without compensation for their opponents might unbalance the game favouring the Axis.

If you look at some sort of standard German expansion before they begin Barbarossa they will control the following territory (besides the standard Austria/Sudet/Czechs): western Poland, Norway (at least now, since you get 10 more rares via the new events), Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of France (half being Vichy), Yugoslavia (parts given to Italy and Hungary) and Greece. They will have around 400 effective IC, and have a total of 120 rares. They will thus run short 80 rares per day, and can not realy trade for any large amounts (if you're lucky about 10 per day). So without the changes in the current scenario Germany lacks 70 rares, the Axis minors 25 rares and Italy something like 10-15. In all the Axis lack over 100 rares per day, or around 40,000 rares per year.

Also keep in mind that Japan lacks basically everything, both energy, metall, rares and oil.

The current changes in the scenario give the Axis a total of 48 free rares per day (if they hold Norway), meaning they still lack 60 per day or roughly 20,000 per year. Given the fact that the Axis start with a combined rare stockpile of about 5,000 it's not that difficult to understand that they will run out quite soon. The only real way the Germans can keep up their industry is to do massive trades with the Soviets before Barbarossa, but after that you are out of rares rather quickly. Also the Germans will have massive problems with oil, and even problems with steel.

To be honest I don't realy see the point of the Axis being so low on rares, as there is no effective way to get any more, at least not in the 1939 scenario. Playing a 1936 scenario the Germans will normally have at least 50k rares in their stockpile, but in our current scenario you have only a fraction of this. Remember that in HoI1 you could research tech to get better conversion from coal to oil, and from oil to rubber. None of these options exist in HoI2, it's all just a downhill struggle for the Axis, as long as the Soviets survive 6 months into Barbarossa the Axis are out of rares. Is this the way you want to win?

The current system of having the whole war revolve around Axis lack of resources leads to one thing that is very bad for multiplayer: short games. The only real way for Germany to win is to start Barbarossa in early 1940, hoping to capture Moscow by the end of that year. By 1941 you will be out of rares, running your IC at a low rate and lacking TC etc, and will die some time around 1942. Doesn't seem like much fun if you ask me.

 

[unmerged(40382)]

Did you realize that one of the major things why World War 2 broke out was the reason that Germany lost African and Asian colonies in WW 1 and had resource scarily compared to old colonial powers France, UK and countries with huge territorial area Soviet Union, USA who had plenty of raw materials at their disposal?

On the Axis side mostly countries who lacked colonies and ability to control flow of raw materials from them challenged the countries that had plenty of colonies for the world domination.

Axis has numerous chances to get rare’s by trading them to supplies if they don’t have any other commodity.

.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

Germany lacked mainly steel and oil, and to a lesser extent uncommon metals used for jet/rocket aircraft. The resource model used in the game does not depict this very well, especially for the Axis minors. As it is now they can not even produce low-tech non-mechanized infantry, since they lack "rare materials". Do they use cobolt and rubber to make some sort of Wunderwaffen for their 1918 infantry?.

Axis has numerous chances to get rare’s by trading them to supplies if they don’t have any other commodity.

Well, these numerous chances are actually one single country: the USSR. The Germans have only one surplus resource, energy, which the USSR has loads of. Also keep in mind that each point of supply the Germans produce and trade away costs them 0.125 rares, so every 8 supply = 1 rares + 2 steel (not to mention that trading 8 supplies daily for 1 year equals a production cost equivalent to 2 infantry divisions). So for every 8 points of supply you trade during a year the Soviets get 4 more infantry divisions than you do. It's not like trading supplies with Russia is a very lucrative bussiness...

Oh well, let's skip the rares etc to the Axis minors. We will just annex them, and the rest of Europe as well. The impact on our belligerence (and thus the USA getting their gearing bonuses very early) won't realy matter, since the USA involvement in the war will not have any effect on it's outcome. Either we reach Moscow in 6 months or we don't, in which case we are basically screwed even without the efforts of the USA.

 

[unmerged(40103)]

If you look at some sort of standard German expansion before they begin Barbarossa they will control the following territory (besides the standard Austria/Sudet/Czechs): western Poland, Norway (at least now, since you get 10 more rares via the new events), Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of France (half being Vichy), Yugoslavia (parts given to Italy and Hungary) and Greece. They will have around 400 effective IC, and have a total of 120 rares. They will thus run short 80 rares per day, and can not realy trade for any large amounts (if you're lucky about 10 per day). So without the changes in the current scenario Germany lacks 70 rares, the Axis minors 25 rares and Italy something like 10-15. In all the Axis lack over 100 rares per day, or around 40,000 rares per year.

We completely agree on the setup of the Axis' rares situation. It doesn't seem right. It's just that I have some confidence in Paradox that the scenario is more or less balanced and that if we (or in this case Friedl) help the Axis too much it might contribute to unbalancing it. Some Axis minors are hardly strenghtening the alliance, but apparently, as Juv said, AI controlled Allied minors are also of limited value for example. Of course I could be wrong and I don't mind trying what you suggested even if I wouldn't be.

 

[juv95hrn]

juv makes a breakthrough in computer tech!!!

I just wanted to announce that Im moving HOI2 from my old 5-year faithful servant AMD K7 500 mhz, 512 mb RAM CPU to a brand new new AMD +3000, 1025 SDRAM CPU and boy is HOI2 faster now!!! Yes, tahts what I have been hosting on! If you think I was a decent host before I expect to be a lot faster now. No more 45 sec saves etc. HOI2 runs incredibly much faster now! Of course this will make it a lot easier to play for me for the nemesis of my opponents. I will need a checkup run sometime before thursday to make sure everything is in order.


Signing off!

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[juv95hrn]

We completely agree on the setup of the Axis' rares situation. It doesn't seem right. It's just that I have some confidence in Paradox that the scenario is more or less balanced and that if we (or in this case Friedl) help the Axis too much it might contribute to unbalancing it. Some Axis minors are hardly strenghtening the alliance, but apparently, as Juv said, AI controlled Allied minors are also of limited value for example. Of course I could be wrong and I don't mind trying what you suggested even if I wouldn't be.

To be honest, after having participated thouroughly in the BETA process of HOI2, the MP scenario balancing issue might lack just a tad of attention so we shouldn't be afraid of experimenting. Hopefully our experiences will find its way into official versions or at least into an industrial standard MP scenario for the MP community.

 

[unmerged(21817)]

We completely agree on the setup of the Axis' rares situation. It doesn't seem right. It's just that I have some confidence in Paradox that the scenario is more or less balanced and that if we (or in this case Friedl) help the Axis too much it might contribute to unbalancing it. Some Axis minors are hardly strenghtening the alliance, but apparently, as Juv said, AI controlled Allied minors are also of limited value for example. Of course I could be wrong and I don't mind trying what you suggested even if I wouldn't be.

While I love Paradoxes games and consider them genius in many ways I must disagree vehemently, the 36 and 39 scenarios are anything but balanced; I won't even get into the 36 one but some points on the 39:

1. France is way underpowered
2. UK is way underpowered
3. Germany has way too few rares (after all regular conquest i.e. not counting any unhistorical conquests Germany will run their industry at 50%)
4. UK airforce is way underpowered
5. German airforce is built up all wrong
6. Romania would be somewhat overpowered with all rares(however without them they are underpowered instead), all other axis minors are vastly underpowered
7. US production is way too high (the US didn't produce 80% as much prior to PH as after, it was more like 20-30%, if even that)
8. Some German tech teams are way overpowered others are way underpowered, (with the right resources spent messerschmidt and heinkel would for instance both have been able to produce well working turbojet aircraft around 1942)
9. Maginot line is underpowered
10. Urban cities with fortresses are overpowered
11. Winter is underpowered (however the possiblility to spend tech to overcome winter attrition is not in either so not much can be done about that)
12. USSR move of industry is overpowered (move you entire industry across half the world and have it work with 100% efficiency in a couple of days, yeah right)

I could go on but I think I've made my point, now I'm am pretty sure paradox will fix these issues if not in patch 2 then 3 or 4, but till then I think it is a good idea to try and help as best we can. Lets remember that the paradox team is not even near as big as many other computer game makers, and that they unfortunately don't have the option to do everything right immediately without community support. Will any of my ideas be implemented in a future patch? Possible, I trust Paradox to collect the information of the community and act upon it, I'm but one voice of many.

There is also the game point of view, do the allies really want to win because Germany are low on rares and can't run their industry in 1940? What Viking proposed will help prolong the game without making it too hard on SU.

Do they use cobolt and rubber to make some sort of Wunderwaffen for their 1918 infantry?.

My point exactly


Edit:

I just wanted to announce that Im moving HOI2 from my old 5-year faithful servant AMD K7 500 mhz, 512 mb RAM CPU to a brand new new AMD +3000, 1025 SDRAM CPU and boy is HOI2 faster now!!! Yes, tahts what I have been hosting on!

Crazy bastard

Edit 2: Im working on all axis' and CW minors' AI I don't think I'll be done in time for the next session, but possibly for the next campaign.

 

[unmerged(40103)]

1. France is way underpowered
2. UK is way underpowered
3. Germany has way too few rares (after all regular conquest i.e. not counting any unhistorical conquests Germany will run their industry at 50%)
4. UK airforce is way underpowered
5. German airforce is built up all wrong
6. Romania would be somewhat overpowered with all rares(however without them they are underpowered instead), all other axis minors are vastly underpowered
7. US production is way too high (the US didn't produce 80% as much prior to PH as after, it was more like 20-30%, if even that)
8. Some German tech teams are way overpowered others are way underpowered, (with the right resources spent messerschmidt and heinkel would for instance both have been able to produce well working turbojet aircraft around 1942)
9. Maginot line is underpowered
10. Urban cities with fortresses are overpowered
11. Winter is underpowered (however the possiblility to spend tech to overcome winter attrition is not in either so not much can be done about that)
12. USSR move of industry is overpowered (move you entire industry across half the world and have it work with 100% efficiency in a couple of days, yeah right)

I meant the balance from a more general point of view. I agree with most of your points above. Economics are important on a higher level of balance. I merely wanted to give some warning about unbalancing in a sense like if you give something to the Axis, consider giving something to the Allies. Especially because I think the 39 scenario is better balanced than the 36 one. I wasn't trying to encourage you to cancel a small sideproject like strengthening Romania and other minors. But Juv has now demolished the need for such a word of caution, because apparently I was overconfident in Paradox' efforts to balance things before release. So basically this means that you can forget my attempted advice and go on with what you were doing (not that I'm likely to have stopped you for some hours anyway ).

 

[unmerged(14035)]

For those of you that have not already done so I suggest writing a short AAR over on the official DEG 3 AAR thread.

 

[tuuttu]

To be honest, after having participated thouroughly in the BETA process of HOI2, the MP scenario balancing issue might lack just a tad of attention

.......eeeehhhhh It looks more like copy/paste from HoI1.

 

[unmerged(21817)]

My work on the CW and Axis minors' AI files is coming along nicely, AI-builds feel a lot more balanced now, in tests run from the start of the start of the 1939 DEG scenario the CW nations (excluding NZ) have built 4 interceptors 1 Tac 3 infantry 1 Mountaineer and 3 transports; this is in march 1940, research has also been shifted away from naval and towards infantry, doctrines and air.

Axis minors are also progressing somewhat but for them to play even a minor role we are probably going to need to add a couple of rares and some free metal.

Does anyone know how to incorporate ai files in a saved game? I have some events that does the job but I haven't figured out how to just edit it in.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

Does anyone know how to incorporate ai files in a saved game? I have some events that does the job but I haven't figured out how to just edit it in.

Excellent work. Save game files are AFAIK stand-alone files, they are not dependent on any other files (except the exe and graphics). In other words, there is no way to include new ai files in a save, other then editing the save of course. All you have to do is edit the military = { } and technology = { } tags, in which case you just put in the same values as in the ai files (armor = x, infantry = y, etc).

We should try to come to some sort on consensus on the adding of rares to Axis minors. As far as I have seen so far the reasons against this is historical accuracy ("Axis minors never had anything but worthless armies") and/or game balancing ("rare materials should be hard to get, even for Axis minors").

As far as historical accuracy is concerned: it's a game, not a simulation. USA won't always land in Sicily, D-day won't always take place in Normandy, Germany won't always invade Norway etc. But if the Axis minors are kept the way they are I seriously doubt any German player will choose to ally with them, since you stand to gain very little (WWI biplanes, 1918 inf and cavalry with low org and low ESE, or feed them with rares you don't have) compared to the alternative (annexing them and taking their IC and resources to build some usefull stuff instead). Players will usually go with some sort of maximizing strategy, in other words you won't always do the historically correct thing (allying with Axis minors that give you nothing usefull) if there are better options (annexing). In the end this will often lead to the German player annexing all of it's traditional allies, something I consider rather unhistorical.

As far as game balancing is concerned: giving these nations a bit of free rares and steel won't make them super strong. They will still mostly provide the German player with things such as 1936/1939 infantry, with a strange mix of brigades and considerably lower org. They won't be making turbojet aircraft, mechanized infantry and Maus tanks. Keep in mind that even if Germany gives them blueprints they still must use their own worthless tech teams (and 1-2 research slots) to research the techs. In the long run there is no way they can hope to keep up with either Germany or any of the human controlled opponents, but there is a huge difference between the forces they can get this way and the forces they get if they run out of rares.

Like I've said before: I don't think this will make or break the game. The game will work just fine regardless of which we choose, but question is if we want the same old story as in HoI1, where Germany would annex everything but Italy.