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masteriw

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Well Dafool it appears you want a game that simply isnt EU. EU is about Europeans raging around the world, its not like civilization where everyone plays by same rules, and most capable rises to rule. Good thing is, modding what you want is fairly simple.

I thought this was a game about re-living a reasonably historically accurate world across a few centuries, not about Europeans "raging" around the world, as in Castille "raging" in North Africa ahistorically, or Lithuania "raging" into Russia all the way to China, Castille again "raging" into the Ottomans by the early 16th century, or some tiny Italian city state "raging" into American colonization. I don't know why people get so defensive in this kind of thread, no one wants to see AI Ming into space, we just want a more believable world without wacky unrealistic wars with Europeans dropping thousands and thousands of soldiers across the globe into modern day Vietnam 200 years before steam (not Steam) was used.
 

DanubianCossak

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I thought this was a game about re-living a reasonably historically accurate world across a few centuries, not about Europeans "raging" around the world, as in Castille "raging" in North Africa ahistorically, or Lithuania "raging" into Russia all the way to China, Castille again "raging" into the Ottomans by the early 16th century, or some tiny Italian city state "raging" into American colonization. I don't know why people get so defensive in this kind of thread, no one wants to see AI Ming into space, we just want a more believable world without wacky unrealistic wars with Europeans dropping thousands and thousands of soldiers across the globe into modern day Vietnam 200 years before steam (not Steam) was used.

Your entire post is basically: you make a statement that nobody mentioned before, and then you make it look ridiculous as if thats supposed to make your arguments better, somehow?

In any case i wasnt arguing for the king of game you described at all.

What i was saying is this:

a.) There has to be a technological efficiency gap.

b.) There has to be a difference in unit quality, even on same level between different group.

c.) When i say Europeans need to rage around the world, i didnt mean Castille vs Ottomans, in this case i consider Ottomans part of Europe, they just need to be allowed to rage in a specific part of the world (middle east, Egypt etc).

d.) I dont support Castille roflstopming North Africa, this is a result of poor balance and lack of provinces in EU3. In my personal mod i have reduced this to acceptable level by making N.Africans strong enough in numbers (provinces) to resist Europeans for quite some time, unless Europeans put quite significant amount of resources into owning Africa, which AI does not (and human could).

e.) When it comes to Europeans vs the rest of world, the raging i had in mind was in terms of Europeans vs tribal Africans and Americans. The only time i get "defensive" of EU design is when people argue for a game where Americans and Africans played on same technological level as Europeans, with closely or as good units as Europeans. This is just ridiculous, and the kind of "civilization" game i had in mind. Some people want a game where they could start as Incas, colonize south America before Europeans arrive and then reverse colonialism and conquer Europe. While something like this would certainly be fun, it is only material for scenario or mod. This is definitely something (IMO at least) that does not belong in vailla EU game.

f.) I understand that EU4 is not EU3, so i reserve right to change opinion when i have full grasp of EU4 mechanics. When it comes to EU3, everything above stands.
 

masteriw

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Your entire post is basically: you make a statement that nobody mentioned before, and then you make it look ridiculous as if thats supposed to make your arguments better, somehow?

In any case i wasnt arguing for the king of game you described at all.

What i was saying is this:

a.) There has to be a technological efficiency gap.

b.) There has to be a difference in unit quality, even on same level between different group.

c.) When i say Europeans need to rage around the world, i didnt mean Castille vs Ottomans, in this case i consider Ottomans part of Europe, they just need to be allowed to rage in a specific part of the world (middle east, Egypt etc).

d.) I dont support Castille roflstopming North Africa, this is a result of poor balance and lack of provinces in EU3. In my personal mod i have reduced this to acceptable level by making N.Africans strong enough in numbers (provinces) to resist Europeans for quite some time, unless Europeans put quite significant amount of resources into owning Africa, which AI does not (and human could).

e.) When it comes to Europeans vs the rest of world, the raging i had in mind was in terms of Europeans vs tribal Africans and Americans. The only time i get "defensive" of EU design is when people argue for a game where Americans and Africans played on same technological level as Europeans, with closely or as good units as Europeans. This is just ridiculous, and the kind of "civilization" game i had in mind. Some people want a game where they could start as Incas, colonize south America before Europeans arrive and then reverse colonialism and conquer Europe. While something like this would certainly be fun, it is only material for scenario or mod. This is definitely something (IMO at least) that does not belong in vailla EU game.

f.) I understand that EU4 is not EU3, so i reserve right to change opinion when i have full grasp of EU4 mechanics. When it comes to EU3, everything above stands.

I don't think anyone has argued for a game "where Americans and Africans play on same technological level as Europeans". If anything, I think most people want merely that these peoples do not get annexed so "ragingly" as they get in EU3, since many of those nations survived into the 19th century and it's silly to get all those provinces converted to Umbrian or Swedish culture at very little cost considering it was probably unfeasible at the time.

And the unrealistic Ottomans, North Africa and Asian roflstompings I mentioned weren't extracted from the postings but from the actual EU3 experience. Not changing anything in the tech and economy mechanics may allow that unrealistic behaviour to continue, and that worries some people.

I think that if those were shown to have been properly addressed then we wouldn't see this kind of thread so often. And whenever it does it gets full of people saying that the game is fine as it is, that it's called EUROPA Universalis, "I'd rather have a Baden country event than a Japan one", etc.
 

Pellaken

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There's also the matter of "Theme"

The "Theme" in Crusader Kings is Family
The "Theme" in Victoria is Industry
The "Theme" in Hearts of Iron is War

Europa Universals has a "Theme" of Europe coming of age, of colonizing the Americas, of the Renascence, and things like that. The "Theme" of EU, put into a single word, is "Europe"
 

Killzerslaul

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There's also the matter of "Theme"

The "Theme" in Crusader Kings is Family
The "Theme" in Victoria is Industry
The "Theme" in Hearts of Iron is War

Europa Universals has a "Theme" of Europe coming of age, of colonizing the Americas, of the Renascence, and things like that. The "Theme" of EU, put into a single word, is "Europe"
Crusader Kings also represents war, economies and feudal dynamics in some detail.
Victoria has a sophisticated system for war, colonisation and politics.
Hearts of Iron has detailed features for industry, diplomacy and technology.

I think you'd agree that if you removed any of the mentioned features from the above games, they'd be much worse. Which means the features that aren't directly a part of your claimed "themes" add a significant part to the game. I think it'd also be agreed that enhancing the depth of these features would also indirectly add to the depth of the themes you stated, as well as adding some interest for players who don't want to focus on that theme too much.

Therefore can we agree that it could only improve Europa Universalis if there were some things outside of your stated theme of "Europe" that received attention, yes?
The history of Europe is very much interlinked with its interactions with other places. Adding some depth and accuracy to these "other places" can only make Europe's interactions with them more realistic and interesting, which in turn makes Europe more realistic and interesting. Which is a good thing, right?
 

DanubianCossak

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Therefore can we agree that it could only improve Europa Universalis if there were some things outside of your stated theme of "Europe" that received attention, yes?
The history of Europe is very much interlinked with its interactions with other places. Adding some depth and accuracy to these "other places" can only make Europe's interactions with them more realistic and interesting, which in turn makes Europe more realistic and interesting. Which is a good thing, right?

We can agree depending on what that depth and accuracy was.

In the end EU is a game about Europe rising to dominance, and thats what (i would dare to say) most expect from it.

That doesnt mean that places outside of Europe cant get more detail, like new mechanics (factions for example), more events, more decisions, more provinces and tags, more unification paths etc. But IMO it does mean those countries cant play by exact same rules as Europeans (same tech rate, same unit quality etc) because that would not allow world to develop the way we expect it. And then theres the argument that many places (specially in Africa and Americas) were simply not on the same organizational level as most countries in Europe. Couple of Mongol states (tribal states by EU3 standards) didnt even have a writing system.
 

Alerias

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Lets stay realistic here; the province layout for the initial release has already been determined, and we got to see some of it last Friday.

It appears a few provinces have been added to India, which was perhaps the most still-underrated-compared-to-history region as of 5.2, so that's a step in the right direction.

But the Eurocentricity is there to stay, for sure.
 

Pellaken

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Crusader Kings also represents war, economies and feudal dynamics in some detail.
Victoria has a sophisticated system for war, colonisation and politics.
Hearts of Iron has detailed features for industry, diplomacy and technology.

I think you'd agree that if you removed any of the mentioned features from the above games, they'd be much worse. Which means the features that aren't directly a part of your claimed "themes" add a significant part to the game. I think it'd also be agreed that enhancing the depth of these features would also indirectly add to the depth of the themes you stated, as well as adding some interest for players who don't want to focus on that theme too much.

Therefore can we agree that it could only improve Europa Universalis if there were some things outside of your stated theme of "Europe" that received attention, yes?
The history of Europe is very much interlinked with its interactions with other places. Adding some depth and accuracy to these "other places" can only make Europe's interactions with them more realistic and interesting, which in turn makes Europe more realistic and interesting. Which is a good thing, right?

I'm not saying you can't put attention into Asia or Africa or the Americas. I'm just saying that a China that could project it's power to Europe is unrealistic. Sure China could win a war at home against just about anybody if they play their cards right, but what Europe developed during this period was it's ability to project it's power far from it's homeland. China could never, ever, beat even a small European country, in Europe (realistically) during this period, but a large European country might be able to beat China.
 

unmerged(612669)

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Europe is (or is in the process of becoming) superior during this timeframe and it should be accurately represented. A centralized, well-ruled nation SHOULD be able to dominate the north African coast, or the Chinese for that matter.

However, that doesn't mean that the rest of the world should lack in quality depth and engaging gameplay. A well-ruled China should be able to defeat a poorly-ruled Portugal. I think this is where monarchial/ruler stats will come into play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers_expedition_(1541)
Yep not to mention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alcácer_Quibir

As for Eastern Europe take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kircholm

Western Europe should have an edge I agree; but don't pretend it was because they could just easily conquer whatever they please as depicted in game; because they frankly couldn't even though they tried.
 

HMatsunaga54

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What are we talking about when we mean Europe? The best we can hope for is that European countries get more realistic war goals like in CK2, Castile/Spain if do invade North Africa they should go for certain area's and not all of it. Countries not matter how powerful should have war goals that at least make sense instead of painting the map their in places that would be hard to hold. As for "Europe vs China" Europe couldn't realistically in invade until the advent of faster communications and transport. Even then, if the Qing didn't suffer through all of it's internal strife I don't think any European power could do much, they would still have to deal with logistics and being vastly outnumbered. There's a fine line between be able to invade a place and being able to do it successfully.
 

FerdinandVeblen

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There's also the matter of "Theme"

The "Theme" in Crusader Kings is Family
The "Theme" in Victoria is Industry
The "Theme" in Hearts of Iron is War

Europa Universals has a "Theme" of Europe coming of age, of colonizing the Americas, of the Renascence, and things like that. The "Theme" of EU, put into a single word, is "Europe"

That was the theme of EUI to be sure, but IMO the game has expanded, especially from what I see with the new trade system. The Theme of EUIV should be (IMO) "The birth of the modern world-system". Since that world-system ended up being dominated by (western) Europe by the end of the game's timeframe, a focus on Europe makes sense. But not such a single-minded one as in previous games.
 

maxirage

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The best we can hope for is that European countries get more realistic war goals like in CK2, Castile/Spain if do invade North Africa they should go for certain area's and not all of it.

But that's completely unrealistic. If Castille was given the choice to conquer North Africa, they would have been ecstatic to do so! The problem is reality: Europeans weren't the invincible gods of death that EU portrayed them as. They couldn't take on the whole world and win, and they weren't that different from the muslims and asians. The power difference only became substantial enough to allow such conquests in the 1700's, after hundreds of years of development.
 

Wallain

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  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Lets stay realistic here; the province layout for the initial release has already been determined, and we got to see some of it last Friday.

It appears a few provinces have been added to India, which was perhaps the most still-underrated-compared-to-history region as of 5.2, so that's a step in the right direction.

But the Eurocentricity is there to stay, for sure.
True enough. Province density is always something we can mod into the game. However I do not think we should neglect just how many plays with just the standard game.