Europe Unleashed: The Return of the Slarg

[Peter Ebbesen]

Manpower 1661​

Alliances being denoted by the member with most manpower, after adjusting for DP-settings, manpower is now:

[color=yellow][u]
Country         Alliance   Men/year  [/u][/color]
Russia            RUS       92,000
Ottoman Empire    RUS       86,000
Austria           HAB       77,000
France            FRA       67,000
Spain             HAB       50,000
Brandenburg       HAB       38,000
Poland            HAB       36,000
Sweden            SWE       34,000
England           SWE       19,000
Netherlands       FRA       14,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000
Portugal          SWE       12,000**

[color=yellow][u]Alliance                   Men/year  [/u][/color]
Habsburg          HAB      201,000
Russian           RUS      178,000
French            FRA       81,000
Swedish           SWE       65,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000

* Officially still in the French alliance in the save file, but by its actions shown to be Not An Ally
** Since minimum is 12,000. Otherwise, it would be lower.

 

[devil]

Sounds like BLK shot himself in the foot.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

I wonder what France was offering though...?

Not as much, as obviously I could not afford all that much given the wealth of France and as it would merely put the burden of defending the provinces from the Habsburgs more solidly on my shoulders than it already was. The final offer, and the one I thought that BTG was agreed with [assuming he continued playing Venice, as there could obviously be no deal if he changed countries as was being discussed at the time], though we had signed nothing, was for 2K over 2 years, 1K extra if France held them after 5 years, 1K extra if France held them after 10 years, and a final 1K extra if France held them after 30 years (BTG's suggestion that this last was added, hey, if I had only pumped 1,000d into Venice over the next 2 decades after the 10 years was up, something would have been dreadfully wrong anyhow, so this was easy to agree to).

I am damn sure that Spain could offer something much better in monetary terms, and I hope like hell for BTG that he has got something he finds really, really, valuable compared to the French offer, for I do not appreciate being deceived, and I do not appreciate people acting without consideration for their fellow alliance members, especially not in ways that are directly harmful to the alliance.

Likely outcome? The mediterranean islands will be gone in a generation or two to the Turk, after which the American colonies will be overrun because Venice, being down to 12,000 man/year, will be unable to defend them against anybody. Then Austria will deliver the coup de grace and annex Veneto.

 

[ForzaA]

why oh why is the 'Swedish' alliance considered by some the strongest alliance??

Sure, money and navy can make up for something, but not for three times the manpower...

 

[Slargos]

why oh why is the 'Swedish' alliance considered by some the strongest alliance??

Sure, money and navy can make up for something, but not for three times the manpower...

It is overwhelmingly rich, it has little to fear since 2 out of 3 alliance members are virtually invulnerable due to geographical location whichever enemy they fight.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Disposable wealth, inflation adjusted, 1661​

Inflation adjusted disposable wealth for the nations and alliances

[color=yellow][u]
Country         Alliance  Adj.Ducats/year[/u][/color]
Portugal          SWE        3602
England           SWE        3412
Ottoman Empire    RUS        3323
Spain             HAB        3329
Russia            RUS        3080
Sweden            SWE        3063
France            FRA        1996
Netherlands       FRA        1926
Austria           HAB        1745
Poland            HAB         792
Brandenburg       HAB         687
Venice            NAA*        461


[color=yellow][u]Alliance                 Adj.Ducats/year[/u][/color]
Swedish           SWE       10077
Habsburg          HAB        6553
Russian           RUS        6403
French            FRA        3922
Venice            NAA*        461

Note: Since these figures are inflation adjusted, it means that some numbers may seem lower than one would have guessed. This is particularly the case for Spain (42% inflation), France (27% inflation), and Venice (38% inflation). Especially, the assumption that a nation consumes all the money it produces is often false. E.g. if any of the mentioned nations were to give money in support of low-inflation nations within their alliance on a regular basis, the actual inflation adjusted ducat value of the alliance would be significantly higher than what is mentioned here. To take an example completely at random, 1000 of Spain's inflation adjusted ducats given to Austria is worth 1000*1.42/1.13 = 1256d, to Brandenburg 1000*1.42/1.05 = 1352d.

 

[PJL]

Nice stats there - those figures show that a Habsburg v Russia alliance would be one big slugfest since neither have a big advantage in income or manpower.

 

[arcorelli]

Nice stats there - those figures show that a Habsburg v Russia alliance would be one big slugfest since neither have a big advantage in income or manpower.

And that the french alliance definitely needs help and support. In both income and manpower they are behind for quite a lot.

And it is not Russian Alliance, the Sultan and the Czar are both equals in our great alliance (well maybe the Sultan could accept a minor status in the alliance )

 

[Wyvern]

Manpower 1661​

Alliances being denoted by the member with most manpower, after adjusting for DP-settings, manpower is now:

[color=yellow][u]
Country         Alliance   Men/year  [/u][/color]
Russia            RUS       92,000
Ottoman Empire    RUS       86,000
Austria           HAB       77,000
France            FRA       67,000
Spain             HAB       50,000
Brandenburg       HAB       38,000
Poland            HAB       36,000
Sweden            SWE       34,000
England           SWE       19,000
Netherlands       FRA       14,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000
Portugal          SWE       12,000**

[color=yellow][u]Alliance                   Men/year  [/u][/color]
Habsburg          HAB      201,000
Russian           RUS      178,000
French            FRA       81,000
Swedish           SWE       65,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000

* Officially still in the French alliance in the save file, but by its actions shown to be Not An Ally
** Since minimum is 12,000. Otherwise, it would be lower.

Could you show the base MP figures please Peter, ie before slider adjustments. I think that would give a fairer picture, after all a country may have less manpower but a +1 fire bonus . Now who could I be thinking of?

 

[ForzaA]

Could you show the base MP figures please Peter, ie before slider adjustments. I think that would give a fairer picture, after all a country may have less manpower but a +1 fire bonus . Now who could I be thinking of?

Spain, without a doubt

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Could you show the base MP figures please Peter, ie before slider adjustments. I think that would give a fairer picture, after all a country may have less manpower but a +1 fire bonus . Now who could I be thinking of?

God knows. The reason I posted dp-adjusted figures is because Slargos has been complaining that I generally post base figures, and only the dp-adjusted ones really count. Apparently it is impossible to please both members of the Habsburg Duo at once.

EDIT: Nevertheless, since you seem curious, I have posted an updated list including the base manpower. Not that it reveals any great surprises or changes the overall image.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

And that the french alliance definitely needs help and support. In both income and manpower they are behind for quite a lot.

Yes, the French alliance of HOL+FRA happens to control only about 37 European provinces compared to the ~100 European provinces HAB+SPA+BRA+POL control. Nobody should be surprised - it is what happens when you let such an absurdly powerful alliance stand unchallenged.

And it is not Russian Alliance, the Sultan and the Czar are both equals in our great alliance (well maybe the Sultan could accept a minor status in the alliance )

As stated, tags were assigned on basis of manpower for identification, not on the basis of primacy. I will be quite willing to praise your great co-equal alliance if you will just get off your asses and DO something against the Habsburg menace rather than just watching from the sidelines.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Manpower 1661
Now includes base manpower to please Wyvern
​

Alliances being denoted by the member with most manpower, base manpower is now:

[color=yellow][u]
Country         Alliance   Men/year  Base Manpower[/u][/color]
Russia            RUS       92,000     74,000
Ottoman Empire    RUS       86,000    108,000
Austria           HAB       77,000     56,000
France            FRA       67,000     68,000
Spain             HAB       50,000     51,000
Brandenburg       HAB       38,000     36,000
Poland            HAB       36,000     35,000
Sweden            SWE       34,000     35,000
England           SWE       19,000     36,000
Netherlands       FRA       14,000     20,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000     17,000
Portugal          SWE       12,000**   13,000

[color=yellow][u]Alliance                   Men/year  Base Manpower[/u][/color]
Habsburg          HAB      201,000    178,000
Russian           RUS      178,000    182,000
French            FRA       81,000     88,000
Swedish           SWE       65,000     84,000
Venice            NAA*      13,000     17,000

As is obvious from the figures, if everybody turned their superior ships and armies into neutral 5/5 land/quality territory - the relative strength levels would not change greatly.

(Except making the high seas safer)


* Officially still in the French alliance in the save file, but by its actions shown to be Not An Ally
** Since minimum is 12,000. Otherwise, it would be lower.

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

To put it bluntly, the diplomatic fallout is much smaller when you hit people in the face than when you stab them in the back (unless the latter is mortal, of course)

Ok Peter, I admit I'm new at this, but since your raising such a big stink lets hear what you would have done in my situation. As I saw it, I had three options.

1. Lose Italy in the next war- and get even more inflation in the process.
2. Sell it to France- and I would likely never see full price paid.
3. Sell it to Spain- who would pay full price immediately.

I took what I saw as the best offer. I've also been fighting powers much larger then myself for a century and a half- I simply can't afford it anymore. Lets hear what you would have done.

 

[Hive]

Ok Peter, I admit I'm new at this, but since your raising such a big stink lets hear what you would have done in my situation. As I saw it, I had three options.

Peter have played EU2 MP for much longer than you, keep in mind. It's ok to make mistakes when you are new, but be sure to learn from possible mistakes.

 

[Wyvern]

As stated, tags were assigned on basis of manpower for identification, not on the basis of primacy. I will be quite willing to praise your great co-equal alliance if you will just get off your asses and DO something against the Habsburg menace rather than just watching from the sidelines.

Here speaks the country that has taken, off the top of my head, Rousillon, Artois and Lorraine off the Habsburgs and not lost a single province himself to them. In fact the Habsburgs have not invaded France for more than 100 years, all their actions have been taken over Venice. Clearly though France is determined to warmonger against our peaceful defensive pact and the Habsburgs will by perforce have to conduct their foreign policy accordingly much as they had wished for the deal that ended the Italian wars to have also gone a long way to normalising relations with France.

 

[Rezag]

I took what I saw as the best offer. I've also been fighting powers much larger then myself for a century and a half- I simply can't afford it anymore. Lets hear what you would have done.

Well maybe talk to your allies instead of secretly working deal with nation that has been longtime enemy few words and negotiation would have likely given you help of France&Dutch diplomats and blessing of your allies .

 

[Wyvern]

Peter have played EU2 MP for much longer than you, keep in mind. It's ok to make mistakes when you are new, but be sure to learn from possible mistakes.

Also bear in mind that there is more than a touch of diplomacy and propaganda in most of the posts Peter and myself (not to mention most others actually!) post in this thread. If anything I ever post comes across as caustic or bombastic, please don't ever be offended, I have the utmost respect for any new player who takes on a country like Venice, and after the hardships you've gone through also doesn't quit at the first signs of trouble. It's impossible not to learn a great deal from the roller-coaster ride you're having and Venice is in an even worse diplomatic position than Austria (and I feel Austria's is bad!) so juggling all your neighbours is no easy task.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Ok Peter, I admit I'm new at this, but since your raising such a big stink lets hear what you would have done in my situation. As I saw it, I had three options.

1. Lose Italy in the next war- and get even more inflation in the process.
2. Sell it to France- and I would likely never see full price paid.
3. Sell it to Spain- who would pay full price immediately.

I took what I saw as the best offer. I've also been fighting powers much larger then myself for a century and a half- I simply can't afford it anymore. Lets hear what you would have done.

Either 2) or 3)

As being seen as trustworthy is essential to me as a player, and given that Venice had suffered from Habsburg duplicity before, I would most likely had gone with 2) It might mean a few thousand ducats less in direct payment - but so what? If the alliance is a good one, and my country is a junior member, I will likely gain much more in the long run from the association.

HOWEVER, if I believed that 2) would lead to my inevitable demise and annexation, I would have gone with 3). The main difference is that, having decided to go with 3), I would realise that that action would be directly against the interests of my current alliance with France and offensive to the other alliance members. Communication with alliance members when you make decisions that affect the entire alliance is vital. That would leave me with two honourable options:

Option a) Contacting France and the Netherlands and letting the players know that:

1. I believe that the alliance has served its purpose and the Habsburgs are just too dangerous
2. I thus desire to withdraw from the alliance, and will seek my safety elsewhere

This to be followed by negotiations with the Habsburgs and other parties to secure my position. It would still be slapping the nation that had done most to help Venice in the face, but it would be an honourable way to end the relationship, and one likely to gain the acceptance, if not the outright blessing, of Venice's allies.

Option b) Contacting France and letting the player know that:

1. Holding on to those Italian provinces is impossible for me, and I do not believe that you can hold them to pay me the full price.
2. Thus, since I expect them to end up in Habsburg hands anyhow, I propose selling them to the Spanish as a way to hopefully end the enmity against Venice.
3. I would like to maintain the current alliance, however
4. Is there any sort of concessions from the Habsburgs, that you would feel acceptable to the alliance, or will I have to leave the alliance if I carry through with this?
5. Will the Netherlands be OK with anything we agree?

Or words to that effect.. It is quite possible that no agreement could be reached; the King of France might see this as simply too devastating to the alliance (losing 10% of Venice's manpower and giving it to enemy #1), but then again, it is not outside the realm of possibility that a larger alliance-alliance deal (incorporating the sale of the Italian provinces) could be reached.

In other words, while I would be trying to save my own skin, I would deal honestly with my allies and inform them of my intentions. They have helped me in the past and deserve the truth. They might not like or agree with my decision, but that is a different issue.


The one thing I would not do would be to ambush my allies with a signed treaty with the enemy without any sort of advance notification or consultation. It is as good as saying "Hey, I have been dealing with the enemy to the detriment of our alliance as a whole, but I am personally getting something good out of it, so you will just have to live with the results. Up yours!"

 

[PJL]

Re Venice - what I don't understand, if she has had rubbish forts, why hasn't she asked for money from neutral sources to help build fortresses. I have not had a single PM in game from Venice about that. Just be careful you don't send a PM by accident to your enemies. :rofl: