Europe Unleashed: The Return of the Slarg

[Peter Ebbesen]

Doge of Venice Declared Enemy of France
French King proclaims alliance with Venice null and void​

The King of France considers the insidious actions of the Doge a betrayal of the highest order; not only a moral betrayal of the alliance by ceding to the Habsburgs what so many Frenchmen died to defend, but also a diplomatical betrayal as the Doge has apparently been conducting secret diplomacy with the enemy even as he was, at the same time, negotiating the sale of the same Italian provinces to France with the stated aim that the alliance could better defend them than Venice could. Instead, Venice has aimed a Habsburg dagger at France while it seeks safety in the Spanish shadow in the Americas.

As Venice has shown itself by its actions to be utterly untrustworthy, and as it has directly betrayed the King of France, the Doge of Venice is declared an official enemy of France and Venice is booted from the French alliance effective immediately.

--------​

I sure hope you know what you are doing, BlkbrryTheGreat, for I can tell you that you are surely pissing off the French King by negotiating in bad faith and ignoring your alliance. Your alliance partners should not be informed of your cutting a deal with the enemy through reading this thread, especially not when they believe themselves to be engaged in negotiations with you - not if you still intended to have somewhat cordial relations with them, that is. If your intention was to set up a switch to the Habsburg alliance, however, it is perfect, as you are clearly too untrustworthy to continue in your current alliance role.

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Your alliance partners should not be informed of your cutting a deal with the enemy through reading this thread, especially not when they believe themselves to be engaged in negotiations with you - not if you still intended to have somewhat cordial relations with them, that is. If your intention was to set up a switch to the Habsburg alliance, however, it is perfect, as you are clearly too untrustworthy to continue in your current alliance role.

Venice never once failed to honor its alliance call, and the Doge has always been honest with his allies. It should be noted however, that the provinces in question were Veneitian not French. The Doge has every right to do what he wishes with Veneitian territory. If the French King does not approve of this then he is free to kick Venice from the alliance and to break off diplomatic contact; however, he should not interpret this action as a type of betrayal.

*edit for spelling

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

If the French King does not approve of this then he is free to kick Venice from the alliance and to break off diplomatic contact; however, he should not interpret this action as a type of betrayal.

Selling to an enemy provinces that France has shed so much blood to defend as part of the alliance against the Habsburgs, and that the Doge was offering to the King of France for sale is an act of betrayal of the alliance and a personal betrayal of good faith negotiations. It is most certainly not "being honest with his allies", as the Doge attempts to portray himself.

Not informing the King of France and the Ruler of the Netherlands that Venice was in the process of seriously weakening the alliance while strengthening the Habsburgs, who have all days been the main enemy of the alliance, is an act of betrayal of the alliance.

Giving the Habsburgs the lands that allow them to surround French Lombardia is an act of betrayal of France.

Venice has brought little to the Dutch-French alliance save woe; it will not be allowed to stay having brought betrayal as well.

For better or worse, when you are part of an alliance you should NEVER treat with the enemies of the alliance without in some way coordinating with your alliance mates and you should certainly not try to cut a separate deal, present it as a fait accompli, and expect it to be treated as other than base betrayal. The provinces are most certainly Venices to sell, but the consequences of showing yourself to be untrustworthy are as well.

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Selling to an enemy provinces that France has shed so much blood to defend as part of the alliance against the Habsburgs, and that the Doge was offering to the King of France for sale is an act of betrayal of the alliance and a personal betrayal of good faith negotiations.

1. France was given first "crack" at buying them.
2. France offered less the King of Spain
3. It was in France's interest to fight to keep the provinces from the Hapsburgs.

Don't even try to play the altruistic vicitm either, France was more then happy to declare Venice enemy number 1 after fairly losing Lombardia to it (after provoking it repeatidly through diplomatic threats). It was also more then happy to rip the Genoeese COT from Venice when it had the opportunity.

Not informing the King of France and the Ruler of the Netherlands that Venice was in the process of seriously weakening the alliance while strengthening the Habsburgs, who have all days been the main enemy of the alliance, is an act of betrayal of the alliance.

France seems to be laboring under the impression that an alliance is a leash. An alliance is a convinence, not a binding pact that lasts an eternity. Venice weighed the facts and decided the course that would best ensure it survival. Venice could not defend these provinces, even with French help, and the French offer was inadequate; there was only one viable option left.

Giving the Habsburgs the lands that allow them to surround French Lombardia is an act of betrayal of France.

No, helping them attack France would be an act of betrayal. Venice sold its lands; it cannot help what lands these provinces boarder.

Venice has brought little to the Dutch-French alliance save woe; it will not be allowed to stay having brought betrayal as well.

Please, France acted in its own best interest. France chose to take action to prevent Italy from falling to the Hapsburgs. The only other option it had to achieve this goal was to take the territory for itself. I doubt that would have gone over too well diplomatically.

For better or worse, when you are part of an alliance you should NEVER treat with the enemies of the alliance without in some way coordinating with your alliance mates and you should certainly not try to cut a separate deal, present it as a fait accompli, and expect it to be treated as other than base betrayal. The provinces are most certainly Venices to sell, but the consequences of showing yourself to be untrustworthy are as well.

Untrustworthy? Venice has always kept its word.

France seems to interpret betrayal as "doing something contrary to the King of France's wishes".

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Sigh... I'd like to state, for the record, that playing Venice is a head-ache and a half. You can't do anything without pissing somebody off (and subsequently being declared an enemy or enemy number one) and at this point Venice cannot do anything to prevent being conquered once that happens..... Oh well.

 

[Mem de Sá]

Sigh... I'd like to state, for the record, that playing Venice is a head-ache and a half. You can't do anything without pissing somebody off (and subsequently being declared an enemy or enemy number one) and at this point Venice cannot do anything to prevent being conquered once that happens..... Oh well.

Oh.. Venice is a most interesting country to play... I still remember Hive´s Venice in the very first Unleashed and as he pissed Austria and France so many times
I sure remember... as I was France that time o

 

[Rezag]

Treaty of Firenze​

Having finally reached a peaceful settlement in the Italian wars, the Kingdom of Spain and the Republic of Venice have agreed to the following treaty:​

Emilia, Firenze, Romagna => Spain.
Empalme, Arizona, Mazatlan => Spain.

Rio Grande, Matagorda, Bayou => Venice
Wichita, Oklahoma => Venice
Chihuahua => Venice

Colonization rights granted to Venice, guaranteed by the Viceroy of New Spain:

El Paso, Concho, Pecos, Llano Estacado, Coahuilah.

Undisclosed sum of money to be transferred to Venetian coffers.

Signed,

The Head Honcho

Signed,


The Doge

Dutch stadholders are too shocked by this amazing news that took them completely by suprise and means even less worth for Venice as ally but more burden.

Still the honorable ducth keep their word and Holland confirms the return of defected provinces Iowa (75), Duluth (78) and Minnesota (76) back to Venice.

This will be the last deal between Dutch and Venice and military access of Venice will be cancelled as its obvious Venice making this huge deals without even a word for hes allies cant be allowed to move unchecked on Hollands land anymore.

 

[Rezag]

Doge of Venice Declared Enemy of France
French King proclaims alliance with Venice null and void​

The King of France considers the insidious actions of the Doge a betrayal of the highest order; not only a moral betrayal of the alliance by ceding to the Habsburgs what so many Frenchmen died to defend, but also a diplomatical betrayal as the Doge has apparently been conducting secret diplomacy with the enemy even as he was, at the same time, negotiating the sale of the same Italian provinces to France with the stated aim that the alliance could better defend them than Venice could. Instead, Venice has aimed a Habsburg dagger at France while it seeks safety in the Spanish shadow in the Americas.

As Venice has shown itself by its actions to be utterly untrustworthy, and as it has directly betrayed the King of France, the Doge of Venice is declared an official enemy of France and Venice is booted from the French alliance effective immediately.

--------​

The stadholders agrees completely with our great ally France that there just is no place for Venice in our alliance after this new shocking episode of untrustworthy.

 

[Hive]

Oh.. Venice is a most interesting country to play... I still remember Hive´s Venice in the very first Unleashed and as he pissed Austria and France so many times
I sure remember... as I was France that time o

I'm pretty sure Melchior remembers it better than you, though.... :rofl:

Too bad I accidently deleted the end savegame a while back, it was good fun to see.

 

[PJL]

The King of Portugal is surprised at the Europe for colonies province swap Venice has done, and a little dismayed that Italy is being split two ways rather than three, even though we have cordial relations with the Habsburgs. Portugal herself would never swap even one mainlaind Portugese territory for colonial possesions, even if Spain ceded the whole of the Americas to us, we would not accept.

 

[Hive]

<snip>even if Spain ceded the whole of the Americas to us, we would not accept.

I would.

 

[Wyvern]

Treaty of Bologna​

The cities of Bologna and Ancona and surrounding estates are ceded to Archduke Leopold I for him to rule as he pleases.

Signed,

The Head Honcho

The Archduke heartily thanks his cousin the Emperor and will do his best to rule wisely over these lands.

On a seperate note he is somewhat surprised at the turn of events and the capriciousness of the Doge's former allies in France and the Netherlands, though one expects the Dutch Stadholder could merely be being forced to follow French policy. Perhaps the French king was just looking for any excuse to send the Venetians to the dogs all along rather than using this agreement as a way to secure peace in Italy and central Europe?

 

[Wyvern]

BLK brought up the issue of Judges in promotion in the italian provinces ceded to Spain.

I don't believe I've ever edited a province with construction ongoing before, and as such there's no precedent on how to handle an eventual stopping of construction and reimbursement of the money.

As such, before I make a prejudicating decision, I'd like everyone's input on the subject.

Those judges will not appear unless you change the contruction tag to be the same as the new province owner. In other province edits you've always taken across bailiffs/governors/judges so it would be consistent to do that here.

But really we're only talking about a cost of 300d over the three provinces so it's not a big deal. Do as you feel best.

 

[Hive]

Those judges will not appear unless you change the contruction tag to be the same as the new province owner. In other province edits you've always taken across bailiffs/governors/judges so it would be consistent to do that here.

But really we're only talking about a cost of 300d over the three provinces so it's not a big deal. Do as you feel best.

Yeah I agree with this.

 

[Rezag]

The Archduke heartily thanks his cousin the Emperor and will do his best to rule wisely over these lands.

On a seperate note he is somewhat surprised at the turn of events and the capriciousness of the Doge's former allies in France and the Netherlands, though one expects the Dutch Stadholder could merely be being forced to follow French policy. Perhaps the French king was just looking for any excuse to send the Venetians to the dogs all along rather than using this agreement as a way to secure peace in Italy and central Europe?

There is nothing strange in Dutch policy with ceding of European holding Venice has changed to come competitor for Holland in america Dutch areas are allmoust completely surrounded by Venice owning and in east Venice tryes to get the few last spots that Holland is aiming for.

So this sudden change in Venice policy without any consultation with Holland just cant be tolerated.

 

[Slargos]

Save incorporating all requested edits:

Here

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

On a seperate note he is somewhat surprised at the turn of events and the capriciousness of the Doge's former allies in France and the Netherlands, though one expects the Dutch Stadholder could merely be being forced to follow French policy. Perhaps the French king was just looking for any excuse to send the Venetians to the dogs all along rather than using this agreement as a way to secure peace in Italy and central Europe?

The French and Dutch have bled for Venice after their old Habsburg masters turned on Venice. We have consistenly fought for Venetian gains and attempted to minimize Venetian losses. This is our thanks: Italy sold to the Habsburgs.

The Doge did not even think of informing his allies of his intentions despite the fact that such a land transfer has a huge impact on both the strength of the alliance as a whole - and the strength of what has ever been the primary enemy of the alliance members.

As such, it is obvious to all that what is going on is a Venetian realignment in the Habsburg camp, undertaken without even the decency of the Doge notifying his allies of his changed intentions. If the Doge felt that the alliance no longer served its purpose, he could have left it at any time, rather than attempt to destroy it from within.

The fact that he pulled off a secret treaty with Spain while simultaneously negotiating with Franch to sell the provinces to France to keep them in the alliance and out of Spanish/Austrian hands (negotiations opened by Venice), just adds an element of personal betrayal to it.

An alliance is not a leash - but it is more than a mere convenience, and one of the things essential in an alliance is that the members are honest with each others and inform other members of decisions that will impact the alliance as a whole.


To put it bluntly, the diplomatic fallout is much smaller when you hit people in the face than when you stab them in the back (unless the latter is mortal, of course)

 

[unmerged(2833)]

So Venice gained some herds of sheep in America?

 

[Slargos]

So Venice gained some herds of sheep in America?

They gained pretty good provinces, all things considered. Pretty good production-wise, I believe.

Edit: Remember we have random goods. Could be goldmines for all I know.

 

[Wyvern]

The fact that he pulled off a secret treaty with Spain while simultaneously negotiating with Franch to sell the provinces to France to keep them in the alliance and out of Spanish/Austrian hands (negotiations opened by Venice), just adds an element of personal betrayal to it.

The funny thing is he initiated negotiations with Austria direct too (apparently after the initial French and Spanish bids didn't come up to scratch ), without telling us he was negotiating with Spain and France. Obviously Blk was trying to start a bidding war between the three of us and Spain came up unsurprisingly with the highest bid . (I was asked if I would give Venice South America and 3000d for the three provinces :rofl: - you can imagine my reply). Of course Slargos and I were talking when most of this took place - a little naive there Blk to think Austria and Spain wouldn't be discussing the situation together and definately wouldn't be entering a bidding war against each other!! You should really have talked openly to us both as otherwise what guarantee did/do you have that Austria considers herself bound by a Spanish agreement? As it happens I have no interest in your colonies or islands, but you had no guarantee of that nor guarantee that Poland and Brandenburg think the same way.

I wonder what France was offering though...?