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Any of you wanting to know more about the history of Europe in a non biased, open view by a historian (no less an ENGLISH historian), then perhaps you should go read 'Europe, A history by Norman Davis'. It's been out for about 1-2 years, however it is a great read.

Unlike other histories it doesn't just centre on western Europe and all the historically victorious countries and campaigns, which is as it should be. One thing I like about this guy is his description of Eastern European methods of warfare in the 16-17th century with which I agree. Here's a quote:


'.. the military revolution is another sbject where would be theoriests have been tempted to use their localized studies from parts of w. Europe for making unwarranted generalizations about the whole continent.

It is often implied that east European methods of warfare in whihc the cavalry did not cede supremancy to the infantry were somehow retarted. They are not.

The armies of Poland or Muscovy needed no lessons from their w. counterparts. They were soon familiar with the latest tech and organizational developments; but fighting across the vast empty expanses of the east, in a harsh climate, they met logistical problems unknown in the battlegrounds of .n. Italy, or Netherlands.

When Poland's wonderful winged Hussars's met western style infantry as they did against the Swedes at Kircholm in 1605 they wreaked terrible slaughter. They repeated the performance when faced bu hordes of oriental style light horse at Kluszino in 1610 and Chocim in 1621.

At the same time flexible, cell like structure of their units, the towarzysze or hussar comrades were able to forage and skirmish and to sustain themsevles in hostile country where less adaptable armies were devoured.

In their encounters with the Poles, the Russians experienced many decades of failure, often because of ill-concieved Western innovations. But they possessed first vclass artillery from an early date, and it was the Russian artillery which finally broke Swedish supremacy at Poltava.'


A great read.


Sapura
 

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Originally posted by Sapura on 06-20-2000 02:18 PM
Sorry, his actual surname is

'Davies'

Norman Davies.

Sapura

Sap, the name rings a bell. What other books has Mr. Davies written?
On other things, and just out of curiosity. I understand that Internet is automatic and that our messages are posted here in this forum at more or less the same time we send them. If this is the case, what time is it in Australia when you sent this message? One o'clock in the morning? Good Lord, when do you sleep? ;)

Best regards, as always.

Martin.
 

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Nah, it was 7pm or so. But you're right, I don't get enough sleep :)


He wrote, God's Playground, 2 volumes Polish History. Comprehensive, but some of his notions / theories don't agree with me. Especially his military information. Still its the largest work on Polish history in English. Not perfect, but passable.

Also, White Eagle, Red Star, Polish-Soviet war of 1920-21 ...

Short History of Poland..dealing with 1900s+


.. and probably other books which I can't quite recall atmo.

A military history of Poland in english is still needed. A COMPREHENSIVE, history that is.

Sapura
 

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His latest is 'The Isles: A History' which is tries to do for the British Isles what his earlier book did for Europe (ie. overturn a few conventions and draw insights from a broader range of disciplines than many traditional writers).

One trick he utilises to break habitual mindsets is to use the appropriate name for historical figures. That is, the name as *they* would have used it. So William the Conqueror is Duc Guillaume, John Lackland is Le Roi Jean and so on. Its part of his project to reemphasise British history as embedded in a wider European context.

A word of warning regarding 'Europe'. The review I read in the LRB when it was first published pointed up a large number of errors in the text that should have been caught before it went in to print, they also felt that his specialisation in Polish history led to bias in his treatment of Russia. I'm not a slavic historian, so I can't really comment on whether this latter criticism is justifed. He's certainly pretty harsh on Russia, but Russian history could be pretty ugly...

Luke
 

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specialisation in Polish history led to bias in his treatment of Russia


.. regarding his emphasis on including Poland in many of his chapters in his book, 'Europe'

a) I'd like to see a review where an english reviewer talks about over emphasis put on information regarding France / England + the rest of Western Europe. Every SINGLE text from England has so far included 99% of information from w. Europe.

Poland / etc is only mentioned in passing, and as part of Russian info during the partitions. If you have problems with an english writer putting Poland first (along with the rest of E. Europe) then thats too bad. This is how it should have been from the start: Western and Eastern Europe given the same amount of treatment.

However, English / French and Americans can't see past their own noses and continue signing their own praises. Russia too has been given much time as well, since it eventually became the 'great European state'.


b) His treatment of Russia in the book is not at all negative. Infact it is almost as positive as it is about Poland. However, when discussing the partitions of Poland, he did let fly calling it an act of barbarity, which it was .. and this is how it should be known.

c) You'd think historians / ppl interested in history would love to read something *new* and exciting .. even if it is about eastern Europe. Instead they continue buying the same rehashed stuff year after year glorifying Western Europe that little bit more. This has instilled in them (readers and historians)an arrogance which makes me SICK.


d) Yes, his book does have errors in it. I've had a look, and surpisingly this includes some errors on Polish information. However the book is 1300+ pages long, you can't expect everything to be exactly perfect for something that size.


e) I maybe defending this historian, but I do not whole heartily support every single one of his books. His Polish history series, in 2 volumes 'God's Playground' while being very complex with great detail leaves many gaps, especially in the military field. His theories on Polish military campaigns are short, and in my opinion not at all correct or explanitory.


Sapura

[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 21-06-2000).]
 

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I agree with Sapura on every point.

However, it is no great mystery why Western Europe has been emphasized in almost every historical text for the last two centuries: it is simply because the overwhelming majority of historians originate there, and they either don't know or care much about the rest of Europe.

I bought an historical atlas a while back. It was written by a French scholar and translated into Swedish. I really don't know why they even bothered with publishing it outside of France. It is Franco-centric beyond belief! It is supposed to cover the whole history of the world but I don't think there is a single map in it that doesn't show at least some part of France, Gaul, or some French colony! Finland and two thirds of Sweden and Norway are never even shown on any close-up map. Yech.

/Doomie
 

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You mean the world doesn't revolve around France! Oh, no! No offense to those of you that are French just having some fun.

Sap part of the reason a poor American like myself comes to this website is so I can learn a little about history. It has been pretty enilightening over the last 3 months or so I have been reading all the post. I now know a little about Polish History. What I knew prior to joining this forum, Polish saved Vienna from the Turks, Polish had some pretty awesome calvary in the middle ages, fought some important battles againist the leading edge one of the great Khans Horde, fought the war of independence againist the Russian communist after WWI (some American pilots actually assisted in the training of the Polish Airforce and flew for the Poles during this war). Then the basics of the WWII in Poland. Not a lot obviously.

Thank you for enightening us (me at least) on some of the history of Eastern Europe and Greven for the Swedish histories as well.
 

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Dragon,

Yeah, I'm not trying to generalize it, by saying all Western historians are like that, but its just a fact that it is a large majority. :(

You knew much more about Polish history than the average person before coming to this forum. Certainly not everything imporant, or noteworthy, but not bad at all.

Sapura