Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations – Dev diary 6: Improved Diplomacy

Chevaresqye

General
18 Badges
Dec 19, 2012
2.193
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Well there is this:


Or maybe you ask whether we must pick a rival or not, if what I take from this quote is right:

then the only penalty would be on power projection which as previous quote said wouldn't go below zero, so I don't think it will affect pacifist game...
Zero legitimacy, Republic tradition and religious unity really hurt. Until there is a clear statement that zero power projection won't hurt, it is hard to tell. The previous dev multiplayer session mentioned some negative effect for low power projection, but I'm not sure how far they tweak those number.

Nobody to embargo! No enemy of my enemy is my friend relations bonus..., no missions to do stuff towards the rival...
(being pacifist and neutral isnt really a good option in a tough world)
I don't mind missing those bonus due to my pacifist playstyle, just don't put any penalty for it.
 

TolHydra

Thank you for making GSG Immersive Again!
95 Badges
Dec 25, 2011
1.335
562
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
What a ridiculous post. Hope you got paid enough.

This diary included everything I had hope from a diplomacy polish (not coalitions, diplomacy), I'm wondering If I should gift a copy of the expansion to one of my friends as well.. to get him back into EU4..
 

InnocentIII

Ask how many Divisions I have!
114 Badges
Apr 22, 2001
4.192
91
Visit site
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Empire of Sin - Premium Edition
  • East India Company
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
Wow. +1/+1/+1 is huge.

Being a sheep is a "value structure" now? LOL. Fanboyism isnt rare or special or interesting or persuasive.

Is a fanboy anyone with icons?
 

Charles555nc

Banned
2 Badges
Feb 4, 2014
167
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
This diary included everything I had hope from a diplomacy polish (not coalitions, diplomacy), I'm wondering If I should gift a copy of the expansion to one of my friends as well.. to get them back into EU4..

With the current gaming market, with every company releasing things half finished and with alot less than they promised, I wont be preordering ANYTHING in the near future.

Im excited about the new expo- I mean dlc, too but I remain aware of previous abuses of my trust.

And I want to hear about massive Ai improvements!
 

TolHydra

Thank you for making GSG Immersive Again!
95 Badges
Dec 25, 2011
1.335
562
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
With the current gaming market, with every company releasing things half finished and with alot less than they promised, I wont be preordering ANYTHING in the near future.

Im excited about the new expo- I mean dlc, too but I remain aware of previous abuses of my trust.

And I want to hear about massive Ai improvements!

I have to say, I probably would be better off having not pre-ordered Eu4, Do I regret it? no, Why? Because I know how great it can get and it eventually will get, thanks to the examples of ck2, and eu3.

I can wait it's not a problem.

Besides, it's not like we have another grand strategy developer that is doing a better job.
 

LibertyComrade

Second Lieutenant
2 Badges
Feb 15, 2014
157
26
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
With the current gaming market, with every company releasing things half finished and with alot less than they promised, I wont be preordering ANYTHING in the near future.

Im excited about the new expo- I mean dlc, too but I remain aware of previous abuses of my trust.

And I want to hear about massive Ai improvements!

Good for you? Welcome to free markets, other people will value products differently than you. Their willingness to buy what you consider to be an "inferior" product will shift the needle on what is produced. If you don't want them to do that, so that "better" products are offered and higher standards are set, then calling them ridiculous is probably not the most persuasive of tactics. It makes you look like a raving child throwing a tantrum, not someone whose opinion is meritorious and should hold weight.
 

Wizzington

Game Director (Victoria 3)
Moderator
41 Badges
Nov 15, 2007
12.073
106.896
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Prison Architect
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
There is no penalty for low power projection, it is purely an opportunity cost. You can play pacifist no worse off than before.
 

MarkS00N

Major
78 Badges
Sep 20, 2013
704
363
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
The previous dev multiplayer session mentioned some negative effect for low power projection, but I'm not sure how far they tweak those number.
This is the reason in polling I choose rival system to be WoN only, because I fear the consequence of having low power projection.

However when it was shown in the dev stream, the negative effect only apply when the power projection is negative, thus by mentioning that the lowest amount of power projection is zero, it is (to me at least) automatically means there will be no negative effect.

EDIT: :ninja:-ed
 

Charles555nc

Banned
2 Badges
Feb 4, 2014
167
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
You are a genius "different people are different" who wouldve guessed.

And if I disagree with you im a "raving child" maybe you are describing yourself more than you know? LOL.

Calling for standards and higher quality and not being slavish effeminate liars will lead to everyone getting what they want- more sales and a better product.

Where as, kissing butt no matter what happens, like you do, leads to the lowest common denominator.
 

lareman

Captain
6 Badges
Jun 28, 2013
406
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
Hopefully we'll be able to negotiate 100% trade power from vastly inferior vassals? I'm vastly enjoying a game as Hansa, where my original goal was to make much money with as little provinces as possible. However, I felt forced to annex my vassals in Lübeck (most of North Germany is in vassaldom under me), because they were sucking the node dry.
 

Wizzington

Game Director (Victoria 3)
Moderator
41 Badges
Nov 15, 2007
12.073
106.896
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Prison Architect
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
The original design had penalties but we felt the system had too much negative impact on player choice that way so the stick was replaced by more carrot.
 

IIWW

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Dec 20, 2013
2.580
1.509
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
In case of demanding fleet basing right in a peace deal: I wouldn't have to pay for this fb right? At least for the duration of truce (if it's not automatically canceled after this). Also, would a military access and fbr obtained in this way boost relations?
 

Jankie

Overlord
89 Badges
Mar 30, 2013
45
8
steamcommunity.com
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
As a programmer I can say that "cardinal automation" ain't a big deal for the coders and I see this as a fix of the annoying cardinal voting system.
On the other side I appreciate PDS's continuative work on every game the make and therefore, every of their games is a master piece!
 

LibertyComrade

Second Lieutenant
2 Badges
Feb 15, 2014
157
26
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
In case of demanding fleet basing right in a peace deal: I wouldn't have to pay for this fb right? At least for the duration of truce (if it's not automatically canceled after this). Also, would a military access and fbr obtained in this way boost relations?

I would think the best implementation for enforced fleet basing rights, military access, or transferred trade power would be either:
a.) The length of the agreement is specified and modifiable in the peace treaty, and not just an automatic 5 years for the truce period.
b.) Have the effects be permanent but once the truce period ends the defeated party gains a CB against the conquering party to throw off the effects, much like an independence movement.

I think (B) would be ideal, but (A) would be much easier to implement. Heck, speaking of modifiable lengths-of-contract it would be really interesting if the truce period could be negotiated and not automatically 5 years no matter what. A conquered nation could negotiate for a longer truce by giving up more territory, or vice-versa.
 

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
52 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
28.589
15.335
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
With the current gaming market, with every company releasing things half finished and with alot less than they promised, I wont be preordering ANYTHING in the near future.

Im excited about the new expo- I mean dlc, too but I remain aware of previous abuses of my trust.

And I want to hear about massive Ai improvements!

I'm generally with you on the gaming market + lowering standards thing, though frustratingly the writing is on the wall there. However, "massive" AI improvements are somewhat a pipe dream. Not only are they more time consuming than a lot of alternative improvements to the game, but they have a cost beyond the $ to make them; they offer diminishing returns on "how well does the AI play" against "how much does this slow the game down to a crawl while the AIs spam calculations". Getting the AI to react differently (IE better) given x stimulus is one thing; making it fundamentally better in all respects is not realistic.

I would like this game less if it were 2-3x slower than it is now, even if the AI were a bit more stout.

Especially when everything from MP stability to bugs with new content to the awful UI are objectively bigger issues and in some cases significantly easier to fix (UI being the simplest, as it's a matter of adding text to tell the player accurately what the **** is happening or will happen). Although the AI isn't stellar, the state of the game puts it down the list of things that need attention...because heck it actually works even if it isn't close to as good as an experienced human. Give me the update where "de-sync" does not = "absolutely must re-host" first any day.
 

Charles555nc

Banned
2 Badges
Feb 4, 2014
167
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
I'm generally with you on the gaming market + lowering standards thing, though frustratingly the writing is on the wall there. However, "massive" AI improvements are somewhat a pipe dream. Not only are they more time consuming than a lot of alternative improvements to the game, but they have a cost beyond the $ to make them; they offer diminishing returns on "how well does the AI play" against "how much does this slow the game down to a crawl while the AIs spam calculations". Getting the AI to react differently (IE better) given x stimulus is one thing; making it fundamentally better in all respects is not realistic.

Especially when everything from MP stability to bugs with new content to the awful UI are objectively bigger issues and in some cases significantly easier to fix (UI being the simplest, as it's a matter of adding text to tell the player accurately what the **** is happening or will happen). Although the AI isn't stellar, the state of the game puts it down the list of things that need attention...because heck it actually works even if it isn't close to as good as an experienced human. Give me the update where "de-sync" does not = "absolutely must re-host" first any day.

I believe some of that, but I think choice is King. Let the player decide to select "hard ai" hidden deep in the game, so that the casuals never know how easy they have it. Satisfy the I want a non cheating, adult level, challenge crowd with a tougher, smarter, more creative ai and yet dont scare off the hate to think casual crowd, who wont be bothered to look at the other options to begin with.

With a decent, even average, computer nowadays, Im sure the game speed wont go down much at all (again dont cater to the lowest common denominator!).
 

Chevaresqye

General
18 Badges
Dec 19, 2012
2.193
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
The original design had penalties but we felt the system had too much negative impact on player choice that way so the stick was replaced by more carrot.

Good to hear this.

Maybe, to give the system more meaningful risk/reward , penalty may be apply for having rival but losing in the competition. So by having no rival, the power projection is permanently stuck at 0. Having 1 rival, the power projection can range from -17 to +17. Two rival, the number will range from -34 to +34. At 3 rival, the power projection can min/max out at -50/+50. Maybe this will give players an alternative methods to stop AI from rival them other than completely destroying the AI nation.

However, rivalry system that solely bases on score always bugs me. How come Austria who only focuses on HRE matter rivals England who has given up continental ambitious? I hope you could do something about that.