Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations – Dev diary 5: Religion

Slym

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I have to say, I've been planning on buying this dlc since it was announced and I do agree that the papacy change is crummy. Think about it like this. Someone who buys the game late has to deal with the papacy system and pause every month to deal with it. Which do you think is more likely, they buy the dlc that fixes it, or they say "screw this game" and go play something else? CK2 Sold a lot of copies months after it was released because people got their friends into it. Don't you want that to happen here too? If the base game feels incomplete people don't buy the dlc, they instead just don't buy the game.
 

Naoki

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I've lost many times a cardinal because I was so busy dealing with other stuff that I forgot putting my +5 influence, or I didn't have enough influence at the moment and had to wait another month or so, just to forget about it. Automated cardinals would really make it easier and less boring, but that's like making us pay for a patrol button on ships. Of course we could micromanage the patrolling aspect, but would that be fun? Would we feel happy about paying for a patrol button in an expansion that would deal with, say, nomadic tribes?
And despite what some people say: no Balor, I don't think it's a good idea. If all the features are like this one, fixing things that don't really work well, then they should be for free, end of story. In CK2 the way plots worked was improved several times, and each time for free, because it was part of the core game stuff. If you make a DLC focused on religion or catholicism and you completely revamp the college of cardinals and other stuff then sure, we'll pay for that, no problem. But this??
 

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I don't even care about that papal control option being paid.
As for the argument of new players new player won't even discover the system. I should know it took me 100 EU4 hours http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/smilies/happy.gif
Of course if helps that i was going to get WoN anyway.
I'm looking forward to WoN because it matters for everyone. I don't have CoP because i don't need it (but random America is tempting for replay value and i want to try colonial nations out.)
Looking forward to WoN PDX! Will get CoP when i make it to a run where i get American colonies.
 

Jia Xu

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I'm disappointed at the continued absense of Sikhism (in the Indian themed expansion, no less). It wasn't just a fringe religion. There was a Sikh Empire and everything. That part of history shouldn't just be erased.
 

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Nice features overall! But my question is, will the lowlands actually convert to reformed religion? Because in my games they never do, nor Protestant
 

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Sorry guys, but everyone is right: given your company DLC policy and past history, the cardinal fix should be free. I know a lot of the usual suspects are in here upset about it, but I have to agree with them, as much as it pains me to do so (my post history is basically: defending Paradox on things like DLC, state of games on release, etc).

As others have said, this is not a change to current mechanics or adding new ones: it's a fix to an existing mechanic. Not only that, it's a fix that people have asked for and was an obvious flaw in the original design.

I have wondered from time to time how hard it was going to be to keep your DLC policy going when you didn't have a game like CKII where it was easy to just add in new things. No pagans or new areas of the map to add to EUIV (or similar to HOIIV). So I sympathize with your dilemma on what to make free and what to make part of the DLC. But given your stated policy, this is a no-brainer.
 

Kyoumen

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All the changes look very good. I don't really care that Paradox puts unrelated features into DLC, because it's been noted by many before with CK2 DLCs that the DLCs tend to be optional if players don't want to play whatever they focus on (Republics, pagans, et cetera). Gotta make money somehow. If people think this is some sort of terrible new gouging, perhaps they ought to try vanilla, no-expansions-installed EUIII and see how many quality-of-life interface enhancements they don't have. The free patches always include many features that formerly would have been part of paid expansions.

That being said, as good as this sounds, after the last several DLC (including and especially Rajas of India, but also Conquest of Paradise), I simply will not buy this DLC at launch no matter how much I like the sound of it. I have no faith that the DLC will work as advertised, that it will not have key features broken or have broken other portions of the game. I was dumb and bought RoI at launch, after buying CoP at launch (and several buggy, semi-finished DLCs before that), and I couldn't even play CK2 for over a week, along with many other players - which was merely one of many problems with it that should have been noticed before launch. There has been no explanation, apology, or roadmap on how Paradox intends to avoid this situation in the future.

I don't mean to be overly harsh. I really do like most of what you're doing here and am particularly enthusiastic about the Hinduism changes. But you cannot have releases like RoI and expect me to buy your next DLC on launch day, or indeed any day soon after. I won't lie and claim I won't get it eventually (the Hinduism changes make it a sale to me, even though a lot of other features aren't that relevant since I rarely play Europeans), but it will be after some patches and I therefore might as well wait for a sale. You will make more money out of me in the future if you fix whatever has gone wrong with your QA.
 

Incompetent

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I'm also not happy about the automated cardinal thing being DLC-only. The objection I have is not that I think UI features should always be free, but that the un-automated cardinal system was bad design (way too much tedium, of a kind that EU4 has generally sought to reduce) to the point that adding an automation option is pretty much a natural 'fix', and by putting it as DLC-only, the devs are basically declaring that they think the original system was adequate.

As others have said, heretic tolerance just doesn't work in the current version. I don't like how heretic tolerance is a de facto penalty to the countries that have it. We either need a change to how religious unity works (so that tolerant countries are less dependent on it) or to how the 'Religious leaders concerned' events work.

I'm looking forward to Fervour and Hindu personal gods though.
 

HotHotHot

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Dear Paradox,

The cardinal mini-game is tedious and I'm almost lolling at the thought of you selling us the fix after having first sold us a bad UI-design. You did play test the game before it was released, right? If any of the play testers told you having to constantly +5 to a cardinal candidate was good game play then maybe they should be replaced before you test your next game. It's not as bad as the merchant placing "mini-game feature" of pre-DW EU3 but still.

Please reconsider.

Regards,

HotHotHot
 

tapewormlondon

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Yes, this is bad waters. What's next, selling us instructions for all the strategy-based mechanics that are hidden from the player? Are we going to get an "accurate combat terrain % and modifiers that affect it" DLC?

I don't understand why stuff like support independence and now auto-papacy are "DLC" features when stuff like the new nations in NA and their unique (and bugged without CoP) government is not.

I strongly agree with TMIT here. Sorry Pdox I have been a massive advocate of your DLC policy, but the check box should 100% be free in the patch.

I will buying the expansion anyway, but I can 100% understand why people will be hugely irked to see that a UI feature is to be paid for. A UI feature which, lets be honest, was a massive oversight in the first place.

I hope you change this, as it looks really bad - literally you are selling something that makes the game less tedious. That is NOT cosmetic.
 

ferriolom

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Instead of worrying about putting the automate cardinals behind a paywall, why not FIX the boring/useless mechanic? If you have to patch in an automate feature to a game mechanic, then that mechanic is not designed well.

I'm going to get the DLC anyway but given the choice I'd much rather pay for the cardinal system to be less useless. Even making it more akin to EU3's system would be better.
 

brifbates

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Dear Paradox,

The cardinal mini-game is tedious and I'm almost lolling at the thought of you selling us the fix after having first sold us a bad UI-design. You did play test the game before it was released, right? If any of the play testers told you having to constantly +5 to a cardinal candidate was good game play then maybe they should be replaced before you test your next game. It's not as bad as the merchant placing "mini-game feature" of pre-DW EU3 but still.

Please reconsider.

Regards,

HotHotHot

So much truth here. I don't play Victoria because of the stupid influence mini-game, I don't play catholics any longer than I have to (or just ignore the papal controller mechanics, nerfing myself) because of the stupid curia mini-game. Those are prime examples of busy-work, tedious micro-management, etc. (whatever you prefer to call it) that just drains the fun out of a game.

I'm a little on the fence about the automation being a paid DLC element. You can easily argue that it isn't required so it is just a bonus. However, given the huge forum outcry looking for it from day one it would probably be better from a customer relations standpoint to include it in the free patch.
 

tapewormlondon

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Instead of worrying about putting the automate cardinals behind a paywall, why not FIX the boring/useless mechanic? If you have to patch in an automate feature to a game mechanic, then that mechanic is not designed well.

I'm going to get the DLC anyway but given the choice I'd much rather pay for the cardinal system to be less useless. Even making it more akin to EU3's system would be better.

If you think they wont do a DLC for the papacy then you are mad! Its one of the obvious places that can be buffed, polished and sold. In the meantime, whilst they think of what that DLC is (I Imagine part of a religion expansion) a free checkbox would be most welcome by the community.
 

DominusNovus

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To me the Cardinal thing is an excelent dlc feature. The game was designed without it and you can have the same amount of fun as you could before the DLC was released, and its not something that affects gamebalance for the people that doesnt have the DLC. But if you buy the DLC you get a little bit of extra value, as you should.

I have to disagree completely. I will absolutely be purchasing the DLC, but this is a feature that should be in the patch. The players have disliked the current system since day 1, and now you've developed a solution that it is simply streamlining an existing interface, without actually adding something new. That should be included in the patch, for free, because its fixing something that is unfun in the existing game. I can't imagine there's a single player (besides someone disagreeing just for the hell of it) who enjoys having to micromanage and pause their game every time that they accumulate 5 points, to go and check their cardinals to see if anyone needs extra influence to stay ahead.

Would you add the new reformed fervor mechanic in the patch, but require anyone who doesn't buy the DLC to remember to manually add their fervor points each month?

Speaking as someone who defends your DLC policy all the time, this is the exact sort of decision that would change people's minds about your DLC.
 

ferriolom

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If you think they wont do a DLC for the papacy then you are mad! Its one of the obvious places that can be buffed, polished and sold. In the meantime, whilst they think of what that DLC is (I Imagine part of a religion expansion) a free checkbox would be most welcome by the community.

Then it seems obvious to just make it a free patch addition, promise the community you'll return to the problem, and charge us for the better mechanic then.