Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica - Dev diary 1: Merchant Republics/National Focus

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Wizzington

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Wiz, if you have the time. I'm assuming you guys made the calculation for spending the extra MP when teching and gain the ahead of time bonus, right? Now, I've only made a few calculations over it, but I think it will be only worth it to get the tech before than that when you are already at or very near the MP cap. Otherwise, if you really want to, 1 or 2 years before, but I don't think it would be worth it most of the time.

You don't actually have to eat any penalties to be ahead of time since it's based on whether the next tech would cost extra to buy. It's basically an incentive to stay current in tech rather than drop back a few techs to benefit from neighbour bonus.
 

nOxr

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In case you aren't feature locked yet, would you consider to give The Hansa an unique government form? It would really suit the theme of the expansion. Basically, what I want to avoid is to see The Hansa turn into a monarchy. The Hansa as a country is a bit weird to begin with, and to have them turn into a monarchy is beyond weird. Their government form wouldn't have to be much different. You could just make it so that if The Hansa turns into a Republican Dictatorship it tag switches to Lübeck and releases Hamburg etc. as independant merchant republics.

Also, shouldn't The Hansa have a core on Gotland in 1444? It might encourage some historically plausible wars between The Hansa and Denmark. It would also give The Hansa a suitable target province if they aim to establish a trade post in the Baltic Sea trade node.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You don't actually have to eat any penalties to be ahead of time since it's based on whether the next tech would cost extra to buy. It's basically an incentive to stay current in tech rather than drop back a few techs to benefit from neighbour bonus.

Well, that's one way to keep Europe ahead of ROTW without hammering the crap out of the latter at least ^_^.
 

josh127

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Its the latter..

You don't actually have to eat any penalties to be ahead of time since it's based on whether the next tech would cost extra to buy. It's basically an incentive to stay current in tech rather than drop back a few techs to benefit from neighbour bonus.
Thanks. That is the route that really made the most sense in the context of the entire paragraph.
 

Thrake

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Republic starts are rare (and non-existent aside from Tibet if you leave Europe). Also, you're still dodging my point. The offset feature exists regardless, and there's no good reason to increase the importance of luck in the game just to disincentivize a mission's worth of monarch points for someone who has plenty. You're advocating to make the game more luck-dependent on purpose. Why?

Because some rulers where Landcasters, and others Louis XIV. Nations should not either always be on top or at the bottom, and you ideally should adapt your short term objectives to your current state rather than a streamlined strategy. Overtime, I've never rolled several 0/0/0, so overtime, it smoothens up (along with neighbour bonus), and you'll even have national focus to help in mil tech for those times where you score a 5/6/0 and then a 4/4/1 heir. Then, random doesn't matter that much if you have means to work around (I'll take France later on; rather I'll annex Irish OPM...). Worst scenario, you can often delay ideas out of a few key ones.
 

DominusNovus

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You don't actually have to eat any penalties to be ahead of time since it's based on whether the next tech would cost extra to buy. It's basically an incentive to stay current in tech rather than drop back a few techs to benefit from neighbour bonus.

So, to make sure I understand: You get this bonus as long as you have the most advanced tech that does not have an ahead of time penalty, correct? So, once, say, Admin 20 has no ahead of time penalty, anyone with Admin 20 or better gets the bonus, as long as Admin 21 has the ahead of time penalty.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Because some rulers where Landcasters, and others Louis XIV. Nations should not either always be on top or at the bottom, and you ideally should adapt your short term objectives to your current state rather than a streamlined strategy.

Does not answer my question.

Overtime, I've never rolled several 0/0/0, so overtime, it smoothens up (along with neighbour bonus), and you'll even have national focus to help in mil tech for those times where you score a 5/6/0 and then a 4/4/1 heir.

Still dodging the point.

Also, given the incentive structure as they're presenting it, there's *really* no basis for nerfing the neighbor bonus as it stands now as the opportunity costs of delaying the tech are substantial.
 

nOxr

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Also, Wiz. It is still far too easy and cost free to call in your allies in offensive wars and let them do most of the fighting. I think the country that starts a war should have to subsidize its allies sometimes in order to convince them to join. That is, make allies generally a bit more reluctant to join an offensive war, but make it possible to convince them by promising to subsidize them during the war. The amount of subsidizes they would need in order to be more willing to join the war would be in proportion to their military maintenance cost. This would make it costlier to bribe a large and powerful ally into joining your war. The end effect would be that countries that start wars would have to bear a higher cost for it, which suits them right. It would also make it into a strategic decision if it's worth the price to bribe a large ally to get them into the war. It might be cheaper to fight without them.
 

nOxr

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So, to make sure I understand: You get this bonus as long as you have the most advanced tech that does not have an ahead of time penalty, correct? So, once, say, Admin 20 has no ahead of time penalty, anyone with Admin 20 or better gets the bonus, as long as Admin 21 has the ahead of time penalty.

Either you have the neighbour bonus or you have the new bonus. You will always have one of them.
 

Wizzington

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So, to make sure I understand: You get this bonus as long as you have the most advanced tech that does not have an ahead of time penalty, correct? So, once, say, Admin 20 has no ahead of time penalty, anyone with Admin 20 or better gets the bonus, as long as Admin 21 has the ahead of time penalty.

To put it simply: Whenever you have a penalty to the cost for the next tech, you have the bonus.
 

Thrake

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Does not answer my question.



Still dodging the point.

Also, given the incentive structure as they're presenting it, there's *really* no basis for nerfing the neighbor bonus as it stands now as the opportunity costs of delaying the tech are substantial.

Or rather, you fail to see my point. You think that random = bad. Somehow, but not entirely. Though, in real life, randomness is everywhere. You cross the street; there's RNG god rolling; perhaps you'll stumble for the worse. That's part of life, and you can't deny the fact that, while rulers where not personnally behind the construction of every building in their nation, a bad ruler impacted heavily the efficiency of its nation, because he was a poor decision maker, or because he was only interested in parties and women. In the other hand, others restructured their nation for the better. I like that the game takes that into account, and forces me to change my strategy. That's it: random can, and should be a part of your strategy. I'd feel like saying that random is bad when you have no control over it, but you'll likely argue that one doesn't have control over ruler rolls. While you can't, you still control how you spend those, and how it impacts your game (no major wars when behind in mil tech, or before getting an idea that increases manpower pool, no major expansion if I want to catch up in adm while my ruler is a 0 adm,...). I don't have to control everything.

Why do you need to control everything? What do you effectively and entirely control in real life?
 

Denkt

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What we "don't need" is to hamper behind nations so that ones in the lead are barred from that small incentive.

Which is barely done with the system I proposed while it both help to fight exploiters and far behind nations.
1, 2 techs behind will useally not kill you and bad monarch should be bad for nation, top tech allways should not be a privilege, which not any of the system supports however waiting just for somebody else to get a tech ahead and then get the tech straight ahead should not in my opinion give you any discount at all, even 1% is generous.
Meanwhile nations that really are far behind and needs discount will get a larger amount then the 5% per tech system, basicly the system helps in both ways.
 

migalhone

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To put it simply: Whenever you have a penalty to the cost for the next tech, you have the bonus.

So i only get the bonus whenever i have a "ahead of time" penalty cost, right?

Wouldn't make sense to have that bonus whenever i embraced the counter-reformation, for example.
 

Wizzington

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So i only get the bonus whenever i have a "ahead of time" penalty cost, right?

Wouldn't make sense to have that bonus whenever i embraced the counter-reformation, for example.

Clarification: An ahead of time penalty.
 

solidprice

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yay western factions!

i might just catch up and getthe dlc's now, and Asia/natives seem a lot more fun with no tech negatives "just because" anymore.
 

Denkt

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Or rather, you fail to see my point. You think that random = bad. Somehow, but not entirely. Though, in real life, randomness is everywhere. You cross the street; there's RNG god rolling; perhaps you'll stumble for the worse. That's part of life, and you can't deny the fact that, while rulers where not personnally behind the construction of every building in their nation, a bad ruler impacted heavily the efficiency of its nation, because he was a poor decision maker, or because he was only interested in parties and women. In the other hand, others restructured their nation for the better. I like that the game takes that into account, and forces me to change my strategy. That's it: random can, and should be a part of your strategy. I'd feel like saying that random is bad when you have no control over it, but you'll likely argue that one doesn't have control over ruler rolls. While you can't, you still control how you spend those, and how it impacts your game (no major wars when behind in mil tech, or before getting an idea that increases manpower pool, no major expansion if I want to catch up in adm while my ruler is a 0 adm,...). I don't have to control everything.

Why do you need to control everything? What do you effectively and entirely control in real life?

Randomness adds alot of flavor of the game, what you are then you play the game is basicly the country, not the ruler, a bad ruler as said should hurt alot.
Its not hard as western to keep decent tech all the time, for other tech groups its harder but you should eventually catch up.
 

AndreasPhokas

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Any chance the manpower outside of Europe gets buffed. In my sons of carthage run I noticed that north Africa's manpower was utterly abysmal, same with most of india(I don't really play china so I can't comment there.) Manpower was never really an issue with the Indian Nations historically.

I know manpower will be tied to tech but wont provinces or atleast base tax still effect manpower.

edit:also could a formable rajputana or rajasthan be a thing for Rajput culture nations(like how Germany has Westphalia)
 

DKinator

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or addressed, but 25 years for national focus seems way too long and restrictive. How about setting it so, upon a monarch's death, the national focus ends? And so as to avoid someone setting it when their monarch is really old to try to game it, add an additional minimum time of something around 10 years. i.e., one has set the national focus and the monarch subsequently dies 3 years later, so now they must wait an additional 7 years for it to end rather than a staggering 22 years. In another scenario, the national focus has been going on for 11 years and the monarch up and dies. In such a scenario, the national focus ends upon his death as the minimum time has passed.
 

migalhone

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Outrider

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Which is barely done with the system I proposed while it both help to fight exploiters and far behind nations.
1, 2 techs behind will useally not kill you and bad monarch should be bad for nation, top tech allways should not be a privilege, which not any of the system supports however waiting just for somebody else to get a tech ahead and then get the tech straight ahead should not in my opinion give you any discount at all, even 1% is generous.

"Should" because it theoretically doesn't make sense or "should" because its would be better for balance? 1% = 6MP, a pittance that doesn't matter.

The "exploiters" (entirely wrong use of the term, but whatever) save 30 mp with a -5%/level neighbor bonus. Again, nobody has evidenced how this provides any real advantage and is anything but noise. This is especially true when random events can give +/- 100 or more points on a whim.

If you're sitting more than 1 tech behind, you are incurring opportunity cost (not having tech, which could unlock buildings, +efficiencies, ideas, units, etc.) to save more MP.

Sitting behind in tech isn't just "free" monarch points from neighbor bonus.

Meanwhile nations that really are far behind and needs discount will get a larger amount then the 5% per tech system, basicly the system helps in both ways.

Under your system, a nation needs to be 6 techs behind before an (-.01*N)^2 system beats (-.05*N), so 78 years behind time. That basically leaves it for Native/Sub-Saharan who westernize and ignores Muslim/Indian/Chinese tech groups that run into Western countries and need to try not to fall that far behind.