Europa Universalis IV Nations - Native Americans: Aztecs (with Quil18!)
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Jomini, while some of your observations are correct others show a certain degree of ignorance. For military tech you mention that the Natives claimed some their victories through indirect or pitched battles, but the Spanish were notorious for the same tactics. For production tech you say that Natives could not match European agricultural productivity, but then you have to explain how corn and potatoes managed to support populations that were equally dense if not more so than most of Europe, not to mention the vast areas over which these crops were spread. For government you say that a lack of paper and math hindered them, but Mesoamericans had paper and Andean cultures recorded information via quipu and both had a complex understanding of mathematical concepts. Additionally, your claim that "the Spaniards elected to "bribe" the Mesoamericans by teaching them European agriculture and technology" is terribly incorrect. It's quite well known that the Spanish upheld most facets of Native culture. Native legal systems, agricultural techniques, property rights, military structures and so on were upheld. The Spanish primarily pacified the nobility, formed political connections with the local states, and converted the bulk of the population. Any transference of Spanish technology and agriculture would have been the unintentional result of incoming Spanish colonists, not a direct effort by the Spanish to "bribe" the locals.
I love how useful these threads are for populating my ignore list. Always someone out there to go "WHAAAA REVISIONISM IT'S A PLOT AGAINST EUROPEAN AWESOME".
Jomini : I have no issue personally with crippling tech penalties and slow tech rate. I have a serious issue with the Aztecs being severly screwed in their ability to actually play the game, which they are when you give a monarch points penalty (rather than an actual tech penalty), and when they don't even get access to basic ability to build infrastructure.
Jomini : I have no issue personally with crippling tech penalties and slow tech rate. I have a serious issue with the Aztecs being severly screwed in their ability to actually play the game, which they are when you give a monarch points penalty (rather than an actual tech penalty), and when they don't even get access to basic ability to build infrastructure.
Do you know something the rest of us don't, or are you just blowing smoke out of you nostrils? Quill admitted himself that he was using an older build, and that it is not to be considered final release in terms of a review - I can't imagine Paradox will completely halt the American tech growth by making it unattainable through an unreachable amount of points. For all you know, the limit doesn't apply to them since they are not westernized.
I doubt they'd ever catch up sufficiently - besides I imagine that the player would much rather own the gold and other trade goods produced abroad, than get a bit of tax money from their american vassal.
Yeah, I remember it was mentioned somewhere that the cap varies (based on tech group?), so they probably can accumulate enough points to upgrade.
Also I don't know if anyone read my post about base tech post back on page 3, but I took the time to look at the England preview again an found out that England has the same base tech cost (800) as Aztecs, the only difference is they don't have the penalty for non-western. Those base costs are really all over the place.
It seems it will make countries with higher costs fall behind other nations in the long run(for example Portugal has only 500 base cost which makes 300 points difference).
It might also have to do with getting ahead of your time? Like a penalty for trying to advance too quickly compared to the rest of your tech group?
I checked that already. "Ahead of time" is a modifier that is shown separately, it doesn't affect the base value. You can see it in Quill's video about technology.
Well, I will probably ask in the Tech DD thread once weekend is over and hope some dev can clarify how is the base distributed.
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This, exactly.
In my unreleased Colonial Uprising mod (hooray, not a gratuitous Latin name!) adding in the other Aztec city-states makes gameplay in the region much more fun. While I would believe some kind of ability (something rare and difficult) to reform the government as a tribal nation without needing an adjascent neighbour wouldn't be missed, but the penalties do add a lot of challenges to conquering Mesoamerica as an Altepetl, as direct incorporation into your empire is rather difficult. Even if the usual relations boosts with Zimbabwe "For Animist" still frustrated me... :happy:
I could show you a map of the Aztec empire if you have any reason to suppose paradox are being ahistorical
The problem with adding all those stub states is
A. Each state is a opm, with the associated benefits. I don't know if every single Aztec sub state was as wealthy as Milan or Madrid but they end up that way in game. It is completely inaccurate and frankly boils down to 'Aztecs should survive so we pumped them full of tax'.
B. The ai couldn't handle all those states. It'd spend warscore demanding money, the removal of cores, freeing vassals, liberating countries etc. The end result being that it took the ai hundreds of years to conquer them, and allowed some Aztec opms to westernise. Again, both are historical.
Bottom line is if you want to retain historical results, it's best to keep them as one nation.
It really, really doesn't prove your point. Moctezuma conquered those lands during his reign, true, but it happened at the end of the 'fifties, so 15 years after game start. The red area is more representative of Aztec influence in 1444.
Do you guys realize that PI is a company that A) like everyone in the world, has limited resources and B) has to make a profit.
What country do you think people play the most as? England or the Aztecs? Where do you think resources should be invested in and where they should be spared?
Don't be mad at them, they're trying to make the game as historical as possible, but every choice they take has to make sense financial-wise. So, do they spend that extra 50 working hours on more developement for that tiny mesoamerica province that just a bunch of us here on the forum might be interested in, or on a tiny extra detail about France that most people are going to play as?
What country do you think people play the most as? England or the Aztecs? Where do you think resources should be invested in and where they should be spared?
Don't be mad at them, they're trying to make the game as historical as possible, but every choice they take has to make sense financial-wise. So, do they spend that extra 50 working hours on more developement for that tiny mesoamerica province that just a bunch of us here on the forum might be interested in, or on a tiny extra detail about France that most people are going to play as?
I just wanted to be a smart-ass !