Europa Universalis IV Nations - Native Americans: Aztecs (with Quil18!)

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Dafool

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Good to see paradox taking the historical route on this and not bending to the pc crowd.

Come now Joey, do you really want to lose this argument for the hundredth time? Are you going to tell us once more that well established historical facts are actually the work of dastardly revisionists? Are you just going to call everyone names and then run away when someone asks you to back your statements up?
 

Dragoneer

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And the bitching about mesoamerica not reaching space age by 1600 starts again.......If anything this is a huge improvement to Eu3, once you have cored and converted your conquered neigthbours you basicly have ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD to buy the highest lvl advisors to improve your monarch stats, as such the Aztecs will be far closer to the europeans then they where in eu3, remember eu nations need to spend alot of monarch power on diplomacy, military and development, Aztecs need neither after the first conquering spree, ALL their monarch points can go directly to teching. Use your brains please.....if anything they should be punished more.

they could make America more playable with more factions i guess....but remember, fewer provinces means less gold and more cores to make, which again slows down teching alot since you wont have money for the best advisors
 
Last edited:

EUTony

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Revisionism is a foolish attempt by liberals to discredit the role of the Church and Catholicism in the rise of modern Europe. It tries to make technologically and militarily inferior civilizations on par with Europe during the Renaissance and early modern period.

In no way should a Mesoamerican civilization on AI be able to beat any real European power. If you want more flavor events to add to gameplay before colonization by the Europeans, I am fine with that. Once a European power shows up though, it should be a veritable game over for the Mesoamericans.
 

Eagle_eye

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Their tech costs are above the monarch point cap. It's literally impossible for them to tech up at first, and probably for a long while afterwards. That's ridiculous. They should start way, way behind Europe, but there's no reason to think that they should advance more slowly simply by virtue of which nation they are.
 

Dragoneer

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Their tech costs are above the monarch point cap. It's literally impossible for them to tech up at first, and probably for a long while afterwards. That's ridiculous. They should start way, way behind Europe, but there's no reason to think that they should advance more slowly simply by virtue of which nation they are.

Ofc it isnt, do you think paradox would ground the entire world outside europe on the same tech the entire game? you can probally invest your points when you reach your cap into the pool
 

EUTony

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Historically, some nations did "tech" slower than others. The muslims and Chinese dominated "teching" in the early and high medieval period whereas the Europeans would take over in "teching" in the late medieval period.

There are winners and losers in history; I am tired over the call to make every nation play/be equal when it is simply not in line with history.
 

Eagle_eye

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We don't want historical outcomes though. That's why it's a game: so that you can change history. There's nothing fundamentally different between Aztecs and Chinese and Frenchmen and Russians and Indians. The reason China stagnated was because of government policy focusing inwards and isolating itself from the rest of the world. If the player is the government, they should at least have the chance to prioritize technological development. Plus, Europe was simply not that far ahead of the rest of the world in anything but naval technology until the very tail end of the time period and the beginning of Victoria. The European conquest of the new world was facilitated by exploiting local rivalries, and of course the fact that 90% of the native population died of disease.
 

BrunoDerKaiser

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If i'm playing the Natives surely i should be able to defeat atleast a single medium sized european power alone, although it should be hard. It would be silly for the AI to be able to do so; i don't want giga Aztecs when i'm not playing as them, i'd rather have it to happen as it would most likely go out: Europe contamines the natives with a tonne of diseases and uses their divides to kill their own kind.
 

Dr_Doom00

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We don't want historical outcomes though. That's why it's a game: so that you can change history. There's nothing fundamentally different between Aztecs and Chinese and Frenchmen and Russians and Indians.

So are you suggesting ahistorical starts? The point of the game is to allow you to change history, but within the bounds of reason. To claim that Mesoamerican civilizations should be on the same technological level as all other nations because "all humans are the same" simply ignores a large portion of the history that allows this game to exist as it does. To make all nations the same would be boring and monotonous, as every country would exist like the last. History is set, the mesoamericans were weaker than the europeans, however, it's your skill as a leader that can change history.
 

unmerged(612669)

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Hopefully a dev sees this question but will there be any benefits to making the Aztecs Vassals? It would be nice if you chose the vassalizing route they westernize and then defend your colonies for you allowing you to focus on Europe; which could if more natives are put in elsewhere, allow other European nations to do the same for their own colonies and recreate the colonial wars of native alliance with smaller numbers of Europeans.
 

Dafool

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And the bitching about mesoamerica not reaching space age by 1600 starts again.......If anything this is a huge improvement to Eu3, once you have cored and converted your conquered neigthbours you basicly have ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD to buy the highest lvl advisors to improve your monarch stats, as such the Aztecs will be far closer to the europeans then they where in eu3, remember eu nations need to spend alot of monarch power on diplomacy, military and development, Aztecs need neither after the first conquering spree, ALL their monarch points can go directly to teching. Use your brains please.....if anything they should be punished more.

they could make America more playable with more factions i guess....but remember, fewer provinces means less gold and more cores to make, which again slows down teching alot since you wont have money for the best advisors

Given that they pay significantly more than the Europeans do for each tech level and have an inherent penalty to their monarch points and start out 3 tech levels behind, I think you're argument is poorly made. With a mediocre ruler, say a 3-3-3, the Aztecs will be gain 4 points each month. With a cost of 2000 points for their first tech level, it will take them 500 months or about 42 years worth of points. Now assuming that the Aztecs invest 100% of all their points into tech, they might reach tech level 2 around the time Europeans show up. Now let's look at Europe. A European nation with a monarch of identical skill will take a mere 11 years to reach tech level 4. With even mediocre management a European nation should be around tech level 6 or 7 by the time they show up in the New World. To compare that with EU3 terms, that's roughly a tech level 3 nation vs a tech level 14 nation. Advisors alone will not get the Aztecs beyond level 3 or 4. Basically, the situation you've outlined is incredibly unlikely and probably only remotely possible if done by a highly skilled player.
 

unmerged(612669)

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Given that they pay significantly more than the Europeans do for each tech level and have an inherent penalty to their monarch points and start out 3 tech levels behind, I think you're argument is poorly made. With a mediocre ruler, say a 3-3-3, the Aztecs will be gain 4 points each month. With a cost of 2000 points for their first tech level, it will take them 500 months or about 42 years worth of points. Now assuming that the Aztecs invest 100% of all their points into tech, they might reach tech level 2 around the time Europeans show up. Now let's look at Europe. A European nation with a monarch of identical skill will take a mere 11 years to reach tech level 4. With even mediocre management a European nation should be around tech level 6 or 7 by the time they show up in the New World. To compare that with EU3 terms, that's roughly a tech level 3 nation vs a tech level 14 nation. Advisors alone will not get the Aztecs beyond level 3 or 4. Basically, the situation you've outlined is incredibly unlikely and probably only remotely possible if done by a highly skilled player.

It is still significantly more likely then in EU3 isn't it?
 

Eagle_eye

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So are you suggesting ahistorical starts? The point of the game is to allow you to change history, but within the bounds of reason. To claim that Mesoamerican civilizations should be on the same technological level as all other nations because "all humans are the same" simply ignores a large portion of the history that allows this game to exist as it does. To make all nations the same would be boring and monotonous, as every country would exist like the last. History is set, the mesoamericans were weaker than the europeans, however, it's your skill as a leader that can change history.

I'm saying that the Mesoamericans should start weaker, but shouldn't be prevented from advancing. At the very least, when europeans show up, a skilled player should have the opportunity to rapidly cannibalize european advancements.
 

Jomini

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Well let's be honest here. If we are saying that Europe techs at a rate of one tech level every 11 years, then Mesoamerica is fantastically better than history would ever deem plausible. Between the dawn of the iron age and the plate mail of the 15th century is 1800 years. Getting to a "tech level" of 1437 (extrapolating backwards from 1448 gives the approximate date when Western Europe should have hit tech 2) by the arrival of Europe? Please. That is wildly generous.

Yes I know, they had very nice obsidian weapons and while they could not easily penetrate steel armor, they could kill. But look at the battles, heavy cavalry charges, gunpowder shock, and of course cannon more than decimated Mesoamerican forces. When the Mesoamericans were successful (e.g. the early Chichimeca War) it wasn't because they were remotely close to on par with Europeans, it was because they were not engaged in direct warfare and had huge numbers.

But what about non-land techs? Well, given that production income represents the ability to extract resources from the land, there are many basic things you cannot do. Without draft animals, you are limited to human power - getting European scale crop returns is impossible. You don't have iron for mining or for lumbering. Trade and government ... well again that doesn't work out so well. You need paper to make efficient commerce possible. You need math skills that the Aztec never developed (their math was good at solving many problems but they lacked a lot of basic arithmetic like reciprocals and some area calculations that could have more efficiently solved known Aztec math problems). With land tech you could at least make some vague hand waiving about better bows and more balanced tepoztopilli, but for the others, there just isn't a way for the Aztec to get as much out of things with all the back technology of Europe. There is a reason why the Spaniards elected to "bribe" the Mesoamericans by teaching them European agriculture and technology in order to pacify them and a reason why the natives took the deal.

Yeah, it is going to be boring to play Mesoamerica in EU, but if we are saying a unified tech tree and the numbers are roughly linear, then the Mesoamericans should have just about nothing until the Europeans arrive. We are talking about jumping a larger technological gap to 1500 than from 1500 to today.

Frankly, the only way I see Mesoamerica nations surviving is if they can arrange friendly relations with the Europeans and use irregular warfare in a bid to get concessions for a lower cost than conquest. This is where you could make Mesoamerica interesting. Give the area special abilities like declaring a guerrilla war - your troops cannot siege or hold territory, but can inflict losses on Europeans and then retreat at no loss of war score. Or let them offer gold to Europeans in exchange for technology (like swords and horses) up until they have half the European tech level. Make it so you lose these advantages as soon as you westernize and have pressures on playing too nice with the Europeans (e.g. European powers press you to convert to Christianity, doing so reduces your special options and makes the people very unhappy).

At the end of the day, I would be highly disappointed if any Mesoamerican state wasn't hard even for strong players to survive and thrive, particularly without flagrantly abusing game mechanics.
 

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What amazes me is even though there is all this crying and outrage about how Mesoamerica is boring to play due to historical reasons, last time Paradox did a DLC where they had a Mesoamerica civilisation become shipfaring and expansionist, the CK2 forums were up in an uproar.
 
Last edited:

TheLionHeart

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What amazes me is even though there is all this crying and outrage about how Mesoamerica is boring to play due to historical reasons, last time Paradox did a DLC where they had a Mesoamerica civilisation become shipfaring and expansionist, the CK2 forums were up in an uproar.
We just want a better representation of them though. It would be like making Europe just Germany, France, Spain, and Italy with modern day borders at every starting point.
 

Steezus Christ

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Revisionism is a foolish attempt by liberals to discredit the role of the Church and Catholicism in the rise of modern Europe. It tries to make technologically and militarily inferior civilizations on par with Europe during the Renaissance and early modern period.

I haven't read a statement this naive in a very long time. Please leave Fox News out of this forum. It has no place.
 

vodos

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Haven't seen these posted yet, he did videos of more nations:

Japan and Ming, looking at their unique systems:
[video=youtube;X0VcKytUkRg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0VcKytUkRg[/video]

Bahmanis (Indian state) and the Timurids
[video=youtube;kkgmg02upc0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkgmg02upc0[/video]