Europa Universalis IV Nations - Native Americans: Aztecs (with Quil18!)

[WeissRaben]

Yeah and I heard Saxony can't build a navy. What are paradox playing at?

seriously, what is your problem with this? It's historical and it allows for a historical outcome -their conquest by Europeans. History and historical plausibility are what eu is about. If you want to play a fantasy mod where native Americans can keep up the tech level with Europeans then be my guest.

You have started ignoring the arguments made when they announced EU4 and never stopped. I am OK with them losing. I am NOT ok with them being horrendously represented and unplayable from the point of view of simple enjoyment. Saxony could not build a navy? The Aztecs could reform the taxation system and rework the government structure. As a matter of fact it was Moctezuma the one who did this, the same ruler you start with. He reformed the taxation to exclude middle men, he substituted kings with governors where needed and gave the others great lands and lavish palaces...far away from the capitals, which is a move eerily reminding of Louis XIV with Versailles. The mesoamerican kingdoms where not UGH UGH CRASH STICK WITH STONE as you tried to convince everyone since the beginning, nor they were on Europe's level. They still did things, and deserve to be, if excruciatingly difficult, AT LEAST fun before the Europeans arrive.

 

[Haresus]

Yeah and I heard Saxony can't build a navy. What are paradox playing at?

seriously, what is your problem with this? It's historical and it allows for a historical outcome -their conquest by Europeans. History and historical plausibility are what eu is about. If you want to play a fantasy mod where native Americans can keep up the tech level with Europeans then be my guest.

I don't see Mesoamerica being capable of uniting in 2 years being very historical, thank you very much. And you have no idea if the outcome is historical or not, because you have not seen what happens when the Europeans arrive and see the Aztec Empire without any competition.

 

[Illanair]

I never claimed they would? Only they might need to, while the focus on the other natives, thus, buying time for the lucky ones to think in ways to deal with the invaders. Such as, for example, meeting and allying with a second colonial European power (situation that happened multiple times in history). Fighting head on shouldn't be the only option. Not on this make a limited gameplay but it also is a not efficient way to deal with the problem, as the Europeans are considerably stronger.

You're missing some key parts here - EU is not history. It is historically plausible, but not historical. In EU3 you'd always see Portugal and Spain (who are generally good friends) beeline for the Americas. Your natives wouldn't have anyone to make alliances with.

A single unified native state is still not strong enough to threaten the Europeans, anyway. So their behavior probably wouldn't change much.

Oh so it doesn't matter anyway? In that case why are we even having the discussion? Newsflash - The Americas are doomed either way! Experts advise citizens to lay down and die - "It wouldn't be worth the bother anyway" commented a leading expert in the field.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Yes it would - The AI respects strength. It is one of the things that the AI can actually calculate and base their behaviour upon. A single united state is much more threatening and difficult to attack than a myriad of tiny fragmented ones.

Surely it kind of was the infighting between Mexica and the other tribes (not least of all, Tlaxcallan,) that allowed Spain to conquer the Aztecs as they did historically. (The diseases didn't after all wipe out tribes immidiately, and had a larger effect on the Maya, for example.)

 

[jockedahl]

I too am a bit saddened that he could conquer all of central america within like five years. That's not historical at all. It's not like montezuma just could double his army in two months and then fully annex all territories in central america.

I'm not saddened that they will lag behind considerably and it will be nearly impossible, even for a skilled human player to fend of colonization. That should be the case, IMO the challenge for a skilled human vs AI should be to delay defeat for as long as possible but not be able to survive to the end date by any chance.

 

[Illanair]

Surely it kind of was the infighting between Mexica and the other tribes (not least of all, Tlaxcallan,) that allowed Spain to conquer the Aztecs as they did historically. (The diseases didn't after all wipe out tribes immidiately, and had a larger effect on the Maya, for example.)

Yes - Historically maybe. But in EU you'll just land an army on their coast and start sieging their cities. You'll be so far ahead technologically that you can fight them with favorable odds while receiving negative modifiers from river crossings and whatnot.

 

[Montemurro]

Newsflash - The Americas are doomed either way! Experts advise citizens to lay down and die - "It wouldn't be worth the bother anyway" commented a leading expert in the field.

lol :happy:

 

[Eh up me duck]

Surely it kind of was the infighting between Mexica and the other tribes (not least of all, Tlaxcallan,) that allowed Spain to conquer the Aztecs as they did historically. (The diseases didn't after all wipe out tribes immidiately, and had a larger effect on the Maya, for example.)

Infighting is the default state for most of the world. Europe was 'in fighting' foe most of this time period but they still managed to stop the ottomans.

 

[Blaaat]

But you just...can't. IF (and it's a big if) you can hoard more MPs than 999, reaching 2080 with the best monarch possible with the best advisors possible (3 base + 6 monarch +3 advisor -2 government) still takes 17 years. For ONE tech. You just...can't improve your country. You have no tech to do so.

Which is roughly the same time it took in EU3 IIRC although you didn't need a good monarch for that. So if you end up with the starting English king (0 0 0) you might as well ragequit and play as someone else :blush:

 

[Tiaexz]

I am very disappointed that Quill is not showing off the National Ideas. Would have been nice to have more of a full list.

 

[scarfless]

Not strictly on-topic, but it has to do with non-European nations.
I have checked the Technology DD and found this.

The Cost of Technology
...
The new tech system in Europa Universalis IV is designed to make it easier for those players that play the poorer nations to gain some technologies so they feel some sense of progress, and it also improves gameplay for all non-European countries significantly.
When buying a new technology level, there is a base cost for each country of 400 power, no matter the category. This base cost is then modified by several factors, such as certain advisors, a neighbor bonus, certain ideas, etc. but the cost (before applying the penalty for researching a tech too far ahead of its historical year) is never larger than 999 – the maximum cap on your monarch power in a category.
Non-Western European technology groups still have a penalty on top of the base cost, so there will still be a greater chance that Western Europe will lead the world in science and military skill. But by keeping the cost before time penalty capped, there is a greater chance that well managed nations will not stagnate.
...

This shows that the base cost of every country should be 400 and that value is modified to get the exact number of points needed for tech-up. I have found in some of Quills videos that the base cost actually varies. Aztecs have 800, Portugal has 500 and if I recall correctly England has 300 (I didn't have time to watch all of those videos again just to see him mouse-over the tech) as you can see in pictures below. By this logic Aztecs should have 1080 requirement for next tech level (260%*base), which isn't ideal, but definitely easier to get.

It would be nice if someone from the dev team could clarify, if this mechanic changed during development and how is this base cost derived or correct me if I didn't get the DD right (which is always a possibility).

Spoiler

 

[Maximonium]

Gee, Paradox and their history of eurocentric favortism and values is being repeated in a game? What a surprise.

It shouldn't come as any surprise, they aren't created ingame to offer that ultimate challenge to a dedicated player, they exist to represent stuff for the game to eat up, their history and challenges aside in the real world. They exist in the game, to be some untamed savages that need to be exterminated, and their lands repopulated with some europeans, or at least that's how it's represented to us.

But hey, at least we're not at the EU3 state, where you take penalties simply because you're not some white Catholic in europe, given a third of content and flavor in most things. Because that would be questionable.

 

[Cymsdale]

You are wrong about the pronunciation of Iroquois.

 

[WeissRaben]

But hey, at least we're not at the EU3 state, where you take penalties simply because you're not some white Catholic in europe, given a third of content and flavor in most things. Because that would be questionable.

Why would you thing they are not? It looks that way to me. Exactly the same as EU3 in everything.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Why would you thing they are not? It looks that way to me. Exactly the same as EU3 in everything.

Catholics now no longer get free colonists, at least.

 

[Heatth]

You are wrong about the pronunciation of Iroquois.

Wikipedia says both are correct. However, since it was the French that named them, and that name doesn't really resemble the name they gave themselves, the French pronunciation is, indeed, the "most correct". Regardless, Quill comment was directed to those who would try to correct him. Since both pronunciations are valid, these people are wrong by default. The fact the French pronunciation came first is just rubbing salt on the wound.

 

[Illanair]

...these people are wrong by default.

So is Quill, following that same logic - He denies that it is correct to pronounce them in a different way than himself.

 

[Dafool]

The deplorable representation of the New World is less than surprising. As such I'm going to try to release a EU4 version of American Empires within a week or so of release. That should make the New World vastly more interesting than in vanilla.

 

[Umega]

Welp, it is kinda silly the Aztecs are so filthy rich because they have gold

The Aztecs didn't even hold gold so highly as the europeans because they weren't using it as a form of currency, only for some fancy decorations. In fact I heard somehwere the Aztecs called gold the "poo of the gods" (for the lack of a better description).

 

[Evie HJ]

So is Quill, following that same logic - He denies that it is correct to pronounce them in a different way than himself.

Perhaps, but at least Quill has history on his side. His pronunciation SHOULD Be the right one; it's just the other one is such a common mistake that it has become tolerated

Dafool: If I promise not to sneak a Columbia passage on the map while you,re not looking, can we team up to repair Paradox's damage?