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Welcome to another development diary about Europa Universalis IV (EU4)! This time we're talking about the envoys you have at your disposal.

Throughout the Europa Universalis series, envoys have been resources you could spend to take certain actions in the game. “Envoy” is a word we actually use quite a lot internally, but probably not as much when describing the game to you all before. Still, you know what we mean. You would get a colonist and send him to make a colony. Get a missionary and send him to convert the heathen.

In Europa Universalis IV (EU4), prepare for the fact that the envoys and how they are used have undergone major changes. In Europa Universalis IV (EU4), envoys are not treated as resources and will, to a larger extent be persons at your disposal that take actions by your command. It's a subtle difference, but we'll clarify it shortly.
Envoys are still used to make alliances, create colonies or take spy actions, but it quite different ways.

First of all, as we mentioned in the last development diary, the spies and the magistrates has been cut with a sharp blade. You can read about the reasons here. (Link to previous devdiary)
We are absolutely keeping the diplomats, colonists, merchants and missionaries in EU4, however you will see that their behavior will change.

Monetary cost for envoys have been removed
In a move that may surprise some people, we have completely removed the monetary cost for the envoys. We've done this for a few reasons. .
First of all, removing the cost means that we can simulate the abilities of poorer or smaller countries being able to do things on the same scale as others. So a vast Portuguese colonial empire is more likely to happen. This was difficult to make possible in the old model - unless you gave country-specific price reductions or made the cost irrelevant for richer countries.

Secondly, removing the monetary cost removes the consistency issue that existed in Europa Universalis III (EU3) for newcomers to the games. Having some envoy actions (diplomacy, magistrates) cost nothing while the others required some cash could be confusing.

Finally, removing the monetary cost reduces the number of ways the AI has to screw up handling money. This means fewer potential ways for the player to exploit the AI and fewer drawbacks for the AI when it looks at its options. We hope this will make the game more challenging for you as a player.

Your number of envoys will be your limit
All of this adds up to the only limit on your envoy actions being the number of envoys you have at your disposal. Therefore you should not be limited by the amount of money you have. But it also means that if you have three diplomats, you can only have three diplomatic actions going at once. More on this shortly.

No connective between diplomats/colonists and leader recruitment
We have removed the connection between diplomats/colonists and the recruitment of leaders. It was never any actual restriction for the player and with the other changes it made sense to change it.

Envoys are now separate entities
The biggest change for you is the concept that envoys will no longer be a resource that accrues value that increases every month. All envoys are now entities that are assigned to a mission and sent on the mission, similar to how you give your court members tasks in Crusader Kings II. And, while the envoys are on their missions, they will not available to do anything else than the mission you have assigned to them. We feel that it will create more interesting strategic decisions for you as a player.

Because if you only have two diplomats, what will you do? Do you want both of your diplomats out on missions, or do you want to keep one at home?
Missions also take time to perform from start or end, so this naturally keeps your envoys occupied for a certain point of time, especially since their travel time is also taken into account.Envoys becomes less an object you need to spend and more active participants in your national policy.

The Diplomats
Some of the diplomats actions will still be instant, but quite a few will now be missions that the diplomats are assigned. Diplomats will also do some of the actions that spies did previously in EU3. We promise, we will go into detail on new aspects of the diplomats and their actions over several development diaries before the game releases, so stay with us!

The Missionaries
The missionaries will work as before, in that you give them a mission to convert a province to your chosen faith, and they have a chance every month to succeed. The only difference is that the amount of missionaries you will have at your disposal will limit the amount of activity you can do in parallel.
This hard limit on simultaneous conversions will make religious ideas a more important option for anyone that is interested in conquering a lot of people of another faith.

The Merchants & Colonists
The merchants and colonists will perform actions similar to EU3, but we'll go into detail regarding those later ;)

So when you use envoys in Europa Universalis IV (EU4), it will be more about strategic choices of where to use them and when to use them, instead of simply putting them to work as soon as you can afford them. In our testing so far, this has proven to be a rather dramatic change, and one that is greatly appreciated by the players. So we really hope you will enjoy envoys!
This was all for now, next week we will talk about the budget and the new economy system.

Here's a screenshot showing some new stuff... :)

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Another thing - Please have more than one use for any given type of envoy. This has always been the case for diplomats (and the now defunct spies), but to me Missionaries, Merchants and Colonists have always felt rather flat, because they didn't present you with a lot of options. Sure, you can choose where to send them, but they only really do one thing, so the choice is often fairly obvious. Especially for something like missionaries, where there will often be very few places in your realm that need conversion.

Missionaries might be used to religious diplomacy, to foment religious unrest in other nations, to advance certain technologies or to stabilize your own nation. Mechants might improve infrastructure, advance trade technology. Colonists (colonial governors?) might increase province growth, change colonial production etc. I don't know if any of these ideas are very good, hey are just meant as an illustration of things it could make sense for the envoys to help with.
 
It's quite possible I think, after all that's precisely how advisors work in CK2 - each of them can perform three different activities. Since EU4 envoys would be limited and personalised with names, it is quite probable IMO.
 
Yeah, and the lack of uses for missionaries makes playing a religious country useless, because once you become homogeneous then theres no use for those missionaries
 
Yeah, and the lack of uses for missionaries makes playing a religious country useless, because once you become homogeneous then theres no use for those missionaries

If you have a homogenous religion in your country you are not expanding fast enough ;)

But yeah, it would be nice to have a number of envoys which could be used for all envoy purposes, but maybe be more efficient in one task than in the others.
 
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I shouldn't have to expand. The lack of things to do during peacetime is precisely what leads to player blobbing, which eventually leads to player boredom. THis is precisely what I talked about in the last page--without well developed systems (with some level of opposition), EU becomes an extension of its war system. And EU is more than a war system.
 
I like that Paradox has given names to envoys, it's a brilliant change that brings a much greater degree of character to that aspect of the game. I do wish they would expand on that as much a possible - give them stats and skills, let them interact with us as the ruler more! :)
 
Paradox Interactive presents CK2: Europa Universalis Edition

I agree. In fact, the whole map and the UI looks like CK2 in my opinion.
 
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Also,

The way envoys take time to get to places interests me.

I just thought about how diplomacy could be changed in that when you say, declare war, or sue for peace, it takes time for the diplomat/runner or whatever to get there to relay the message. I just find it interesting because closer nations would get the news earlier and thus have more time to react to whatever the message was while far away nations would get it later as it takes longer for the diplomat to get there.

I guess what I am trying to say is it would be interesting if all events took an X amount of time for you to recieve them with range being also taken into it so closer nations get the message earlier than further ones.

this is just a weird thinking in my head though, as it is very late where I am... perhaps this whole post should just not be read by anyone... it is nonsensical!
 
You think religion is the only reason for that? It's a rather short game compared to EU3 as it is. Also you didnt answer how...

Europe pro-protestantism= almost every region is 100% catholic with a few unique cases. Post-protestantism the region of northern germany slowly goes protestantic (50%) the first years and then POOF Scandinavia and Britain becomes protestantic.

..would be a huge case of coding.

So, lets take a province. If there are 4 different types of Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Reformed, Orthodox), 2 different pagans (Animist, Shamanist), 2 different types of Islam (Sunni, Shia), and 4 different types of Eastern Religion (Hindu, Shinto, Confucian and Buddhist), then we need to keep track of 12 religions, each of which may or may not exist in the province at the time, and each of which may be a majority, plurality, or minority. We also need to deal with situations where there is no majority religion in the province at all. To make it more fun, the totals of each religion need to add up to 100%.

Either that or we have a situation where there is always a majority of a religion in a province, and need to then keep track of the levels of 12 religions (even if only in so far as majority, large minority, small minority, absent). This could get compicated as we have to track this across 1500-2000 provinces.

At least as far as Christianity goes, splitting it into 4 is a gross simplification, a fact which probably applies to other groups as well, not least of which because EUIII (all we have to go on) treats all of the Eastern religion as being as closely linked as the Christian ones are to each other, and completely ignores the presence of Judaism and other religions.

The population will be 100% of all religions in the province in either case.

This is just a big strawman. This system doesn't require jews to be integrated, they could rather be integrated as events and modifiers like wallonian immigration. You are trying to make it over-complicated to make it look impossible, which isn't the case.
What you're doing is a fantasy simplification that's far, far worse than anything Paradox has done.

"This system could be complicated so lets just keep it at *poof* conversions". This is not the attitude that will drive EU forward. You still haven't described why a percentage system couldn't more realistically portray the religious situation rather than poofconversions.

Perhaps what we have so far with EUIII is "Here is the dominant religion in the province. It has finally tipped over from 49.9% Catholic, 50.1% Sunni to 50.1% Catholic, 49.9% Sunni.". This would then have the appearance of "Poof - Sunni province turns Catholic".
It may be more realistic to use a percentage system, but is the extra 12 percentages being tracked per province worth the processor load?

Also, if it is so important to include the percentage of Protestants, Sunni, Shia, Catholics, Orthodox and Reformed in (for example) a repeatedly conquered and reconquered Constantinople, why should Jews be ignored and rendered into merely a set of events and modifiers?
 
Perhaps what we have so far with EUIII is "Here is the dominant religion in the province. It has finally tipped over from 49.9% Catholic, 50.1% Sunni to 50.1% Catholic, 49.9% Sunni.". This would then have the appearance of "Poof - Sunni province turns Catholic".

Also, if it is so important to include the percentage of Protestants, Sunni, Shia, Catholics, Orthodox and Reformed in (for example) a repeatedly conquered and reconquered Constantinople, why should Jews be ignored and rendered into merely a set of events and modifiers?

Except that even if it represents a province tipping over to 50.1% Catholic, that doesn't fit with the current system which allows conversions to (relatively frequently) occur within a matter of months, starting from what is in reality 0% Catholic.

And Jews are less feasable to represent in that way because of 1. The unique role they played in society, and 2. The fact that in not very many places did they make up 11% of the population. In many cities, sure, Ottoman Selanik comes to mind which was actually majority Jewish for a while, but the surrounding countryside would still be Orthodox.
 
So you think it is better to see mass conversion of every area in the game, in which places that had been for centuries Christian become 100% Muslim and areas that had been for centuries Muslim become 100% Christian, all within a few years? In which a European nation that conquers India can wipe out the Hindu religion and make every Indian a Christian?

EUIII's system is just nonsense, frankly I don't care how they fix it, whether by modifiers or percentages, so long as it does in fact get fixed.

Paradox history files have never been perfect. Should we scrap a realistic game element just because we cannot get accurate data for every start date? Paradox should approximate, and let modders worry about the exact details of what should be where on April 22, 16XX.

As in my previous post, treat the situation in EUIII so far as "dominant religion" so we go from 49.9%X, 50.1%Y to 50.1%X, 49.9%Y, and change the displayed religion of the province.

We may have vast changes on the way, and we'll see exactly how it works when we get our later religion based DD...

As for the second part, where do you start estimating the actual data for the religious minorities of a province? Even if there are records showing the presence of a minority, unless the country was enormously free and tolerant, the numbers of a minority will be underestimated, probably by a vast amount. Where would you record the various Crypto-religious who pretend to be one religion whilst actually following another?



As a separate point, assume there are just the 12 religions we have at the moment. Does religious conversion target all of the 11 that aren't the "true faith" equally if they happen to be in the province? Can you, for example, target muslims over other Christian groups? What about targetting a specific other religion in your group? Can you choose to target the largest other group, and do the smaller groups resist conversion more than other religions?
Can you continue to convert a province after you become the majority, in order to remove the minorities? Should we allow there to be provinces where there is no majority religion, but merely a plurality of one - for example 30% Catholic, 30% Protestant, 40% Sunni? Would this one be treated as being dominantly Sunni, or mostly Christian, since there are 60% christians in the province as opposed to 40% muslims, despite muslims being the largest single group?
 
Except that even if it represents a province tipping over to 50.1% Catholic, that doesn't fit with the current system which allows conversions to (relatively frequently) occur within a matter of months, starting from what is in reality 0% Catholic.

And Jews are less feasable to represent in that way because of 1. The unique role they played in society, and 2. The fact that in not very many places did they make up 11% of the population. In many cities, sure, Ottoman Selanik comes to mind which was actually majority Jewish for a while, but the surrounding countryside would still be Orthodox.

How do we know there wasn't a Catholic presence in the province?
Why are we talking 11% being the magic number to get represented? If they made a majority in an area at all, then ideally they should be represented.
What is there to stop a province in a tolerant, multicultural country amongst more intolerant ones from acquiring expelled Jews, and thus acquiring a noticable minority group?
 
As for the second part, where do you start estimating the actual data for the religious minorities of a province? Even if there are records showing the presence of a minority, unless the country was enormously free and tolerant, the numbers of a minority will be underestimated, probably by a vast amount.

By guessing. Like I said, Paradox doesn't need to get things exactly right. I would even be fine with very few provinces having minorities on the start date, and the ones which appear are caused by in-game developments.

Where would you record the various Crypto-religious who pretend to be one religion whilst actually following another?
It's not like the current system represents those things either - thus the inability of a new system to do so does not mean it is unusable. If you're asking how I would do it personally, then I would say that I'd represent such people as following their de-facto religion, e.g. Crypto-Muslims in Andalusia I would represent in-game as simply Muslims.

As a separate point, assume there are just the 12 religions we have at the moment. Does religious conversion target all of the 11 that aren't the "true faith" equally if they happen to be in the province? Can you, for example, target muslims over other Christian groups? What about targetting a specific other religion in your group? Can you choose to target the largest other group, and do the smaller groups resist conversion more than other religions?
Can you continue to convert a province after you become the majority, in order to remove the minorities? Should we allow there to be provinces where there is no majority religion, but merely a plurality of one - for example 30% Catholic, 30% Protestant, 40% Sunni? Would this one be treated as being dominantly Sunni, or mostly Christian, since there are 60% christians in the province as opposed to 40% muslims, despite muslims being the largest single group?

Ideally we would be able to target one specific group within the province for conversion. If that would be too much to ask for, then it should convert from among the group that is currently largest (or second largest if your religion is already a majority). In the event of a tie, randomly select from among the largest groups. Your 30/30/40 province would be represented as dominantly Sunni. The smaller the religious minoritiy, the harder it should be to convert.

How do we know there wasn't a Catholic presence in the province?
Why are we talking 11% being the magic number to get represented? If they made a majority in an area at all, then ideally they should be represented.
What is there to stop a province in a tolerant, multicultural country amongst more intolerant ones from acquiring expelled Jews, and thus acquiring a noticable minority group?

I think it's fairly certain that there were no significant groups of Catholics in for instance, Marrakech, in 1444. Yet in EUIII that province often ends up Catholic within the first 20 years of the game. I used 11% because someone suggested a good system a while back in which a province's religions were split into ninths, and it's an idea I support.

As to your last question, well, nothing. It's just not very common. Since tiny minorities of Jews have played significant roles in history, we either represent them as modifiers, or we leave them out of massive sections of the map. Unless you want to split the religions into smaller groups than ninths, then most of Western Europe would have to be represented with no Jews at all.

Not to mention the fact that if they're made a minority in the same way most religions would be made minorities, they'd all end up converted within a very short period of time as few countries would have anything else to spend their missionaries on.
 
The 'this doesn't seem feasible' argument seems pretty silly, considering that it was done by MMtM in exactly the way that you guys are talking about and it still managed to work.
 
The 'this doesn't seem feasible' argument seems pretty silly, considering that it was done by MMtM in exactly the way that you guys are talking about and it still managed to work.

A mod can afford to spend months on getting a feature realistic, because it doesn't have to stay in-budget and on-time. A game cannot.

A modmaker can afford to piss off a segment of his userbase by insulting their nationalistic/religious sensibilities, because his livelihood doesn't depend on selling the game. A gamemaker cannot.

A mod can afford to release what's an obvious beta, because nobody expects better. A gamemaker really shouldn't.

What's feasible with a mod and what's feasible with a game are two very, very, very, very different beasts.
 
If the problem is the fact that different religion group often gets converted in the first 20 years in the game, then reduce the conversion chances. If it still happens to convert it in a few months or years, well, it will be so unlikely that it is hardly relevant.
 
A modmaker can afford to piss off a segment of his userbase by insulting their nationalistic/religious sensibilities, because his livelihood doesn't depend on selling the game. A gamemaker cannot.
Observation: It is probably impossible to release a strategy game that depicts the Balkans (among other places) without insulting someone's nationalistic or religious sensibilities.