Europa Universalis IV Developer diary 8 - With God on Your Side?

[Velorian]

I like most of what I hear in this diary, but the system seems to carry the same inherent flaw as EU3: oversimplification.

Keeping things as simple as possible is usually good for a game, but making conversions all-or-nothing affairs damages gameplay in my view. We don't need the exact percentage of each religion in a province (not that I would mind), but having no minorities is weird. Something like "small", "moderate" or "large" minorities with minor effects on the province and the possibility of an uprising even after the first successful conversion would be nice.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

We never get to see the sky in these games. In TW there's no sky. In CK2 there's no sky. In Shogun 2 there's just a little bit of fog. In Civ we get to see a tiny purplish sky in some of the unit animations in the civilopedia. In order to make all gamers happy they should have a detailed 3D moon in the sky with different phases, possibility of eclipses and occasionally a new crater forms.

It's historically-accurate!

We would only have the sky, if EU4 map would be globe. So it ain't gonna happen.

 

[takedown47]

We never get to see the sky in these games. In TW there's no sky. In CK2 there's no sky. In Shogun 2 there's just a little bit of fog. In Civ we get to see a tiny purplish sky in some of the unit animations in the civilopedia. In order to make all gamers happy they should have a detailed 3D moon in the sky with different phases, possibility of eclipses and occasionally a new crater forms.

It's historically-accurate!

there's sky reflection in CK2 and you can see the sky in the menu screen

 

[Korsan82]

I like the idea. But as a Sunni I have to ask this: In Ottoman Empire the most pious rulers also brought the most technological and cultural advancements. With the system introduced here rulers like Mehmet II or Kanuni Sultan Suleyman (The Magnificient) are not possible.. Basically any ruler until Suleyman the Magnificient couldn't exist in game terms with the new set of rules.
Will there be some character traits for your rulers and heirs which could maybe modify those rules set by the religion system? This way extraordinary personalities could be modelled, not only for Sunni but for all religions.

 

[Dafool]

I like the idea. But as a Sunni I have to ask this: In Ottoman Empire the most pious rulers also brought the most technological and cultural advancements. With the system introduced here rulers like Mehmet II or Kanuni Sultan Suleyman (The Magnificient) are not possible.. Basically any ruler until Suleyman the Magnificient couldn't exist in game terms with the new set of rules.
Will there be some character traits for your rulers and heirs which could maybe modify those rules set by the religion system? This way extraordinary personalities could be modelled, not only for Sunni but for all religions.

Well, we know that researching is done through monarch points, so if those points are greater than the penalty given by being overly pious, then yes, a great king could be both pious and technologically innovative. The problem is that we have next to no knowledge about the technology system, so it makes it very hard to guess how big or important such a bonus could be.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Will there be anything special for Wars of Religion?

Also, will it be possible to guide your state away from religion towards secularism, causing your country to "lose" much of it's religious flavour, while also centralizing power?

Also, will we be hearing more about how Christianity interacts with religions outside Europe? For instance, I know it's outside the timeframe, but a premature Taiping Rebellion would be super cool. There's nothing that would have stopped it from happening earlier...

 

[Jia Xu]

Also, will it be possible to guide your state away from religion towards secularism.

Taking the innovative idea set probably does this.

 

[hebelecan]

I don't really like the whole numerical piety system for Muslim nations. If I understood correctly if I wanted to advance technologically, I'd have to have low piety. To do this I need to wage war against other Muslims. I really don't see how these two connect with eachother, say I want to expand west as the Ottoman Empire, that'd mean fighting Christian nations which would increase my piety which could be the opposite of what I want. I really don't think this whole system would fit, unless you had a LOT of options to affect your piety that this sort of stuff like the example I gave would be irrelevant in the long run.

 

[Fawr]

Nice.

Giving different religions a different feel will add to the replayablity.

Well, we know that researching is done through monarch points, so if those points are greater than the penalty given by being overly pious, then yes, a great king could be both pious and technologically innovative. The problem is that we have next to no knowledge about the technology system, so it makes it very hard to guess how big or important such a bonus could be.

A good first start would be to think that the ottomans are in EU3 20% behind europe in tech speed. Since Johan said -100 piety will make you close to the Latin group but not equal, its probibly a 15% bonus (and therefore a 15% penalty for +100 piety) on the old scale. That makes it as important as the EUIII innovation slider.

 

[Jia Xu]

If I understood correctly if I wanted to advance technologically, I'd have to have low piety.

No, I think it means if you want to advance a little faster in technology, you need low piety. It's probably the case that your tech group is still the main factor when it comes to technological growth.

 

[Ephafn]

Since piety will change by such a large factor between rulers, I'm wondering whether it would be a good strategy to alternate between pious rulers where you invest your monarch points in Ideas, and with impious rulers where you invest in Technology...

 

[vertinox]

Will we see religious minorities in EU4?

 

[MonWoffel]

will animism and shamanism be clumped together as one single religion just like in EU3? Will they also have the defender of the faith mechanic?

 

[The Turk2]

Wait? What about the other religions? What about Judaism? How has Paradox Interactive forgotten about the Jews, who played a very large role across Europe.

 

[Orinsul]

I don't really like the whole numerical piety system for Muslim nations. If I understood correctly if I wanted to advance technologically, I'd have to have low piety. To do this I need to wage war against other Muslims. I really don't see how these two connect with eachother, say I want to expand west as the Ottoman Empire, that'd mean fighting Christian nations which would increase my piety which could be the opposite of what I want. I really don't think this whole system would fit, unless you had a LOT of options to affect your piety that this sort of stuff like the example I gave would be irrelevant in the long run.

From the sound of it its not supposed to make sense. Piety as an opposite of technological progress doesnt make sense. Its probably just a game balance thing that doesnt make sense in the words, but in how the maths works in the game so without being able to see the whole picture of the game in action it just sounds daft but'll turn out not to be in practice. Given how little we know, especially about technology and the other maluses and modifiers effecting moslems, worrying about it is probably a moot point at this stage.
Basically its Paradox's job to work out game mechanics so im basically trusting to them that theyll get it right.

 

[Revshawn]

Like most of this update!

One thing makes me worried though! About the whole thing about investing money in Cardinals. How is that going to be handled? Will you be able to put however amount of money into cardinals that you want? And how would I know how I am doing in comparison to other people? Will they show if the cardinal is controlled by you or what? Because if I can't be sure of whether I can get my cardinal in there or not, I'd much rather just spend the money on other things I can be sure about.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

That kinda makes sense, fighting in foreign parts causes ideas, techs, etc from those parts to be brought home and the influx of foreign ideas and loot invigorates and etc your scientists. Hence the Crusades setting off a golden age of progress in the high middle ages and the opening of trade and exploration did much the same in the EU3 era.
And from a game point of view, having incentive not to spend every moment fighting your neighbours then fighting other neighbours while waiting for the true with the first to wear off is always a good thing for game where wars not the focus like EU.

Yes, but that means you should get a tech INCREASE while fighting the Western World of that time period, NOT a penalty! Under the current system the decision to go for Vienna by the Ottomans somehow makes them backwards tech-wise, while fighting over Iraq and Northern Africa (and the Golden Age of the Arab civilisation already ended at the time the game starts) inceases tech?

As I've said before - that makes perfect sense when it comes to governmnent and social organisation. Heck, if being late on those in turn reduces research - that would make sense! But just a general negative tech modifier for piety? Kinda awful.

The rest of the mechanic sounds great though, making each religion "feel" different to play looks wonderful, and increases replay value for me!

Wait? What about the other religions? What about Judaism? How has Paradox Interactive forgotten about the Jews, who played a very large role across Europe.

Most of the time the question of Judaism is avoided in Paradox games, since the current political situation in Israel and Palestine is complex and controversial to say the least, and Paradox tries to stay totally neutral on the issue, and rightly so.

However most major mods for previous EU series installments included Judaism and Jews, so there's always hope in the community to add that.

 

[Seli]

Wait? What about the other religions? What about Judaism? How has Paradox Interactive forgotten about the Jews, who played a very large role across Europe.

Not introducing religious minorities does mean that they don't have to take into account the jewish minorities in Europe and their treatment by the majority populations. Probable prevents a lot of head-aches.

 

[Orinsul]

Yes, but that means you should get a tech INCREASE while fighting the Western World of that time period, NOT a penalty! Under the current system the decision to go for Vienna by the Ottomans somehow makes them backwards tech-wise, while fighting over Iraq and Northern Africa (and the Golden Age of the Arab civilisation already ended at the time the game starts) inceases tech?

In which case abstract it into saying the penalty comes from the increased costs associated with fighting and then recovering from war against foreigners. The point is, the mechanics reasoning probably isnt the reason for it, but game balance and how it works with everything else. And as we dont know how everything else works no worries.
It could just be a way of encouraging the AI moslems to go historical and conquer each other to lead to Ottoman Empires not expand ever outwards into europe. Or really who knows, not enough is known at this point to make it worth worrying about.

As for Jews, why would they be in a game which doesnt represent anything on a smaller scale than provinces? In the high-level politics, wars, colonisation etc which is the focus of the game, they have no role that cant be abstracted so other than making the jew-inclusion lobbyists happy what would representing them in the game achieve? Even in the really well thought at mods for EU3, they were never more than gimmicks. Id rather not have EU4 stuck down on gimmicks and missing out on actual features.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

In which case abstract it into saying the penalty comes from the increased costs associated with fighting and then recovering from war against foreigners.

Yes, but everybody has to deal with foreigners while only Muslims loose tech while fighting them. I'm all for distant foreign wars being costly and forcing you to choose between tech and military, but that's not something Islam-centric, should be an all-round mechanic.

Anyway I agree with you - the game isn't out yet, we know only a few bits of info, so I'm far from yelling "omg imba! y u nerf Islam?!" or getting my panties in a twist because of a DevDiary. Especially since one of the main reason I love Paradox is mod support - so even if my concerns end up being valid (and I hope they don't one way or another) there's always a way to change things.