Only in theory, not in fact. The people pretended to convert but kept their own religion - as in almost all cases of forced conversions.
Europa Universalis IV Developer diary 8 - With God on Your Side?
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Only in theory, not in fact. The people pretended to convert but kept their own religion - as in almost all cases of forced conversions.
That's a good point. I think there's a huge difference between "enforced" conversions vs. "organic" conversions. There were a lot of nations that were "converted by the sword" throughout history, while others spontaneously embraced a new faith. I know that the devs want to keep it simple, but something to my mind would be as follows:
I usually play innovative civs. So I don't get to convert them as my government. However, that doesn't mean that there might even be an organic process by which culture drifts over time. Right now, the only spontaneous conversions are usually *away* from the state religion during the Reformation. I wish there were more events about people "embracing the true faith" if you've done a good job managing a peaceful, prosperous state.
- Select a tolerance slider or setting: 0% tolerance of other religions than the state religion, to 100% tolerance.
- When sending in the missionaries, choose whether it will be "peaceable" (takes longer, may not work) vs. "forceful" (takes shorter, but with greater revolt risk).
- Various factors might help convert a populace: presence of military may help forced conversions, but set back peaceable conversions, for example.
I usually play innovative civs. So I don't get to convert them as my government. However, that doesn't mean that there might even be an organic process by which culture drifts over time. Right now, the only spontaneous conversions are usually *away* from the state religion during the Reformation. I wish there were more events about people "embracing the true faith" if you've done a good job managing a peaceful, prosperous state.
That's the point. Converting provinces should be a very difficult and costly process, but when you decide to do so it happens quickly. Most mass religious conversions were under duress.
Perhaps this should be the solution:
- Missionaries only work on heretic or pagan provinces
- Missionaries can also be sent abroad to countries that allow them in, creating Christian communities but not converting the whole province
- You can send inquisitors to any owned non-state religion province if you have a bunch of narrowminded ideas and/or piety
- Missionaries take time to convert a province like the EUIII ones, but they do it peacefully
- Inquisitors convert the province much more quickly, but the process inflicts massive economic damage to the province in question
The problem is that EUIII's religions represent serious convictions, a Catholic province won't ever spawn Sunni zealots. Yet the provinces that made up Granada revolted more than once in the 16th Century. To put it in EUIII terms, despite the forced conversion the provinces remained Muslim.
The whole 'send missionary to province to convert it' system is an unrealistic base from which to build on, so it's rather fruitless for us to try to derive a realistic system from it. I think they should just make it cost more and decrease the percent change, and at some point in the future throw out the whole system and make something new.
The whole 'send missionary to province to convert it' system is an unrealistic base from which to build on, so it's rather fruitless for us to try to derive a realistic system from it. I think they should just make it cost more and decrease the percent change, and at some point in the future throw out the whole system and make something new.
Nice changes and upgrades.
I hope the reduction in missionaries will mean it takes longer and is harder to convert provinces not of your religious group.
It was always silly that I could conquer provinces in China and have them Christian in 10 years.
I hope the reduction in missionaries will mean it takes longer and is harder to convert provinces not of your religious group.
It was always silly that I could conquer provinces in China and have them Christian in 10 years.
After the Moors were expelled Granada never spawned revolts though?
They were expelled in stages. After the first revolt (1499-1500) the nobility was expelled and the rest were 'forced' to convert, which in fact was meaningless as it wasn't enforced almost at all. Instead the Spanish attempted to target Arab cultural institutions, gradually increasing the pressure. Eventually the external threats from the Ottomans and Protestantism led to a proclamation banning the use of Arabic, sparking the major revolt of 1568. Again afterwards, some were expelled and some were allowed to stay, with the final expulsion coming in 1609.
So I would describe it as a gradual conversion in which some people converted voluntarily, and the rest were expelled over the course of more than a century.
Minority system could have solved all such problems with gradual, multi-stage conversion process, with later stages being more difficult to convert (resulting in actual expulsions). All of that is in 'Dei Gratia' mod - hopefully we'll see EU4 version of it. It seems apparent that devs are happy with rather simplistic, abstracted model.
Perhaps there should be options when converting a province. Offer the tradeoff of hastening conversion at the cost of lowered base tax for a long, random time, until the province recovers? The clear event could be on a MTTH=50 years, or something.
That would represent Spanish-style force-conversion. It would be modeled on the Inquisition. The loss of revenue would be justified by much of a productive generation being killed or exiled... It could also spur immigration events in nearby provinces under a different nation of the faith you're cleansing, and cause hostility with these countries.
That would be a dynamic way to model the Reconquista's final chapters.
That would represent Spanish-style force-conversion. It would be modeled on the Inquisition. The loss of revenue would be justified by much of a productive generation being killed or exiled... It could also spur immigration events in nearby provinces under a different nation of the faith you're cleansing, and cause hostility with these countries.
That would be a dynamic way to model the Reconquista's final chapters.
The catholic system sounds really bad. Like it'll be really annoying having to constantly guess what amount of influence you want. It might be realistic, but it just seems bad. The eu3 system with all the expansions seemed pretty good.
Oh well, probably easy to mod.
and oh dear... only bonuses on extreme ends... there's a reason magi mundi did everything to attempt to make the middle ground with sliders a decent option. This is gonna be, as soon as you decide you want max piety you're gonna feel like your bonuses are gradually disappearing before you start getting the ones you want. The middle ground isn't going to be interesting it's just going to be damn tedious. Not impressed.
Also, with muslims having piety, all I'm going to be thinking is, this is nice and all, but was the piety of the ruler really that irrelevent to christians? Even if it was 1/2 or 1/3 as relevent if it was at all it should be giving bonuses or maluses that affect things.
Apart from the orthadox one which sounds good, all the features presented hear seem sortof tedious, like manually sending merchants before NA.
Oh well, probably easy to mod.
and oh dear... only bonuses on extreme ends... there's a reason magi mundi did everything to attempt to make the middle ground with sliders a decent option. This is gonna be, as soon as you decide you want max piety you're gonna feel like your bonuses are gradually disappearing before you start getting the ones you want. The middle ground isn't going to be interesting it's just going to be damn tedious. Not impressed.
Also, with muslims having piety, all I'm going to be thinking is, this is nice and all, but was the piety of the ruler really that irrelevent to christians? Even if it was 1/2 or 1/3 as relevent if it was at all it should be giving bonuses or maluses that affect things.
Apart from the orthadox one which sounds good, all the features presented hear seem sortof tedious, like manually sending merchants before NA.
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Having there be one religion for the nobles and one religion for the peasants would make a lot of sense in a lot of places for this era (e.g. india as well)
While that might be effective for 10-30 years time by the next generation I'm sure a very significant number of "pretending" people would have converted.
We never get to see the sky in these games. In TW there's no sky. In CK2 there's no sky. In Shogun 2 there's just a little bit of fog. In Civ we get to see a tiny purplish sky in some of the unit animations in the civilopedia. In order to make all gamers happy they should have a detailed 3D moon in the sky with different phases, possibility of eclipses and occasionally a new crater forms.
It's historically-accurate!
onething i hope to see is a protestant coalition of sorts against the holy roman emperor. Far to often i see austria force converting everyone in the empire to catholicism(just an example i maybe see the nations say no to force conversion a third of the time). Granted it makes my protestant prussia games fun =D prussia versus austria(or trollhemia) round 1!
I really hope they change the way holy wars work because the AI will usually just conquer most of North Africa by the 16th century by only using holy wars. As much as other players who like gigantic empires would really discourage of this, I think you should only be able to call holy wars on heathen provinces in Europe. Because how many times in history do you remember the Spanish going on a crusade for north Africa after finishing the reconquista, or with some random power taking a tiny province from the ottomans in Anatolia. I would really like this to be implemented because colonization of Africa did not really occur in Africa by force until the scramble for Africa which is in Victoria's time frame you should still be able to do colonial conquests of natives but only in the America's/
That was the reason why the Spanish attempted to clamp down on Arab social institutions. So long as they kept their pre-conquest culture, they could also maintain their pre-conquest religion. It's true that a large number of people did convert, but not in comparable numbers to the people who didn't. Just like in the Ottoman Balkans, actual conversion radiated out of urban centers, with cities converting at a much higher rate than the countryside. The revolt of 1568 was mainly supported by the people living in the hills and mountains.
They should probably give the Spanish a special national idea such as conversion of provinces takes half the time. To help show how they spread Catholicism around the world in a relatively short amount of time.
On a similar topic, it would be a good idea if the religious conversion was tied to culture. It should be much harder to convert wrong-culture (neither accepted nor same group) provinces than converting same-culture ones. This should also be the case for CK2...