Europa Universalis IV: Developer diary 4: Your Economy is about to change

[varetta]

I can't wait until this game comes out! I know we haven't seen a tech dev diary yet, but please don't use the cumbersome system from CK2. I wouldn't mind seeing Vicky 2's tech system implemented or something altogether new, but not CK2.

I totally support this. I would prefer a technology system similar to Vicky 2, but anyway not something as CK2. That idea works for a game of dinasties like that, but not for EU I think.
Anyway, please make the next development diary about technology or advisors, I think people will agree with me that are two of the most interesting things that we are expecting to know.

 

[GregElSho]

Yes, constructive comparisons should be based on EU3 with expansions, not mods.

 

[TKFS]

Yes, constructive comparisons should be based on EU3 with expansions, not mods.

I totally agree.

 

[tvremote84]

I really hope they balance how much money you are making. If it is anything like CKII you will constantly find yourself unable to spend the ridiculous amounts of money you make, thus reducing the entire aspect of economy to simply, "what do I buy next?" This sucks, and takes a lot of fun out of managing the nation, but I understand economic modelling isn't really a core aspect of CKII so I don't mind.

What gets me worried, however, is the sample screenshot that shows a surplus of 50 gold a month and some nominal expenses that seem pretty paltry compared to income. You shouldn't be able to sit and pile up money and be able to buy everything you want without having to make sacrifices. Economy is such a huge aspect of EU I would hate to see them dumb it down so players can feel like they are better at the game than they are.

 

[Chamboozer]

What gets me worried, however, is the sample screenshot that shows a surplus of 50 gold a month and some nominal expenses that seem pretty paltry compared to income. You shouldn't be able to sit and pile up money and be able to buy everything you want without having to make sacrifices. Economy is such a huge aspect of EU I would hate to see them dumb it down so players can feel like they are better at the game than they are.

I completely agree, though I think the reason it's like that in the screenshot is because they took it on the start date, when armies and navies hardly exist, therefore minimal maintenance.

 

[Hrothga]

People love exclusivity, that they get something a lot of other people get.
To be honest, EU3 at its core isn't a very difficult game. It's just got a pretty steep mountain to climb at the start.
I'm interested to see what other aspects will be fleshed out to make peacetimes more then just "What research should I put more into this time?"

EU3's economic system always struck me as pointlessly convoluted for little reason. One thing some people tend to forget or not realize is that complexity does not always beget depth. Some players just automatically decry a loss in complexity, but it's not always a bad thing, and it doesn't always remove depth from the game. As long as there are still plenty of interesting and meaningful choices on what to do with your resources, I'm all for simplifying the economy, because in EU3, the economic system's complexity didn't really create any real amount of depth. Just lots of tedious calculations the player had to make in their head upon every expenditure. There will be plenty of ways to create depth even with this "simplified" system.

I agree completely. The economic system of EU3 wasn't fun. It was a nuisance to be honest. Even if I knew how to play with inflation, I never do because it isn't fun.

 

[Korsan82]

If I was someone not playing EU3 over and over again for many years (until DW...) I'd say these changes are all good. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this DD is bad, nor do I say it lacks innovation. Maybe it's just me but I thought EUIV will carry the EU franchise to the next level by not just replacing features but by adding new ones.

One thing I was hoping for was a realistic population calculation which is related to every aspect of your empire - some microcosmos inside your economy. I think people don't realize the importance of the population and how war is connected to this. At least I didn't ever think about it until I saw the "Game of Thrones" TV show. In that show you could see the Stark son dealing with Winterfell business while his brothers are out fighting. I especially liked the audience scene where the city people came to him and told him about their problems because of the war. I felt like I found a new star in the sky as I never thought of that...
But indeed war changes everything: When your country is at war, when your able men are at arms then there is not many people left at home to care for the farmlands. This leads to food shortages and increased death rates.

Now why should you care? You should. Because less people means less taxes. Less people means less workforce. Less people means less manpower for your army.

But in EU3 and to my dislike now also in EUIV you don't ever have to worry about that.

Your empire has a population of say 1 million. You lose an entire stack of 50k men to some enemy but my total population doesn't change. I can go on and on with this procedure until my manpower pool - which is as well not linked to the population calculation - is exhausted.

I understand that calculations like this were a little bit too much for EU3's time. But now we have the chance to add all this stuff in. This is in no way complicated, just complex. For me EUIV looks like EU3 with better graphics and some real great features.

Someone who played EU3 on a more casual level EUIV still looks awesome. But it doesn't take the logical neccessary steps to carry it to the next level.

So this is what I'd like to see in short:

• manpower connected to population (you lose population if you lose your armies)

• tax connected to population (stay at peace and your people will not die and thus you'll get a bigger population and more taxes. You have to think carefully about going to war or not as peace might be better for you)

• max population connected to your agriculture tech level. If your population is higher than your support rate death rate and diseases will increase and your population and economy will suffer. Now could be a good time for war... (Actually this thought was even historical correct)

• province population reduces if a regiment is recruited at that province (1k army = 1k less men in that province)

• higher population increases the chance to get better advisors/envoys/generals simply because you have a bigger variety inside your realm

 

[sumdood]

So harbor fees are an expense for using other nations harbors. Any chance of harbor fees being an income from other nations using your harbors?

 

[Chamboozer]

I hope we'll be able to get income from other countries trading in our lands, and perhaps adjust the taxation rate by country. It was Ottoman manipulation of these customs duties that caused the rise and fall of trading empires in the Levant. Ottoman favoritism (capitulations) of first Venice, then Ragusa, then France, and finally the English, was what allowed them to establish economic hegemony in the region.

 

[MrQwerty]

What I find most interesting about this entry is that stability and technology will not be determined by sliders. For stability, I can only imagine a more complex set of equations and algorithms that will account for cultures, religions, opinions, inflation, etc. Technology is best improved by cooperation and trading with other nations, so opinions and trade efficiency could be significant parts in calculating technology. So far, this looks promising, and am looking forward to more details .

 

[Sir_Furlong]

Another wonderful diary, thanks for this!

 

[xGhost4000x]

"Combat our inflation".

Wonder what that little, magic button does...

You declare war on inflation.

 

[Talq]

I really hope they balance how much money you are making. If it is anything like CKII you will constantly find yourself unable to spend the ridiculous amounts of money you make, thus reducing the entire aspect of economy to simply, "what do I buy next?" This sucks, and takes a lot of fun out of managing the nation, but I understand economic modelling isn't really a core aspect of CKII so I don't mind.

What gets me worried, however, is the sample screenshot that shows a surplus of 50 gold a month and some nominal expenses that seem pretty paltry compared to income. You shouldn't be able to sit and pile up money and be able to buy everything you want without having to make sacrifices. Economy is such a huge aspect of EU I would hate to see them dumb it down so players can feel like they are better at the game than they are.

Game is a year away. They won't have done a balance pass yet.

 

[unmerged(491870)]

Game is a year away. They won't have done a balance pass yet.

Not to mention, we don't know the nation, and how many soldiers and ships he has.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Some questions I got from reading page 8&9

Are we still forced to receive inflation due to owning mines? Is it possible to halt the production? And what about China(and later, Europe and America, not the world), which uses paper money instead of precious metals? In such society, mining(w/o minting) actually combats inflation instead of creating them, how would this be implanted?

 

[k_merse]

This is the first DD I'm satisfied with. I like the changes you made with the economy.
Will we able to focus on only one part of the economy to gain more from that, like neglecting others? Like a huge colonial empire would focus on trade and the goods of the colonies, France would focus on taxes, Poland or Hungary would focus on production.

 

[WolfSnakeCaffer]

Looks really, really good, far better then the economic system of EUIII, so excited for this game.

 

[unmerged(1823)]

Not to mention, we don't know the nation, and how many soldiers and ships he has.

Rev. France 1789 start.. nothing is balanced in income/expense yet.

 

[SacredDatura]

Repay Loans now possible
One new thing that has been requested countless times is the possibility to repay loans before they expire. Sitting on a pile of money for five years is too tempting for many people. So now we have added that feature, but you still have to pay all the remaining interest you signed up to pay, so be prepared.

Yes! This will certainly make me consider using loans more often, instead of as a emergency-only option.

 

[unmerged(362834)]

As an economist, I half agree with the gold issue and I'll try to explain. Please someone correct me if I'm mistaken.

More gold usually means you are richer, but a large excess of gold could significantly increase demand for goods without a similar enough supply growth, boosting the price level (inflation) on the long term due to the supply x demand relation. But in the short term, yes, you are richer. On the other hand, another thing that generates inflation is using less gold for new coins, that is, minting. This expands the money supply or monetary base (in this case it is the same, since there is no different currencies, only "gold" coins) again without a similar enough goods supply growth, which also creates inflation. This usually happens when a country spends more than it collects: on expansions, wars, etc.

I'd sugest modeling inflation considering its relation to government surplus, as was the case of EUIII, but then again I understand this is hard to model (and for the AI to control) and maybe not a fun gameplay feature for most players.

Uhm, not really an expert, but I think that the point is that in the EU timeframe gold is the currency used in the economy. If the amount of gold in the economy increases, poeple feel richer, demand more goods, and if supply doesn't move much then prices go up.

It's simply because the amount of gold relative to the amount of goods has increased, so gold is less precious comared to other commodities. As prices tell you how much gold you must spend to buy a certain good, and gold is more abundant and thus less precious, prices go up.

Inflation really worked in the same way as today, the only difference is that today you use paper money. If the central bank prints currency, the amount of money increases compared to that of goods and thus you have inflation.

Today gold is good to protect against inflation because it's a commodity commonly considered valuable and which does not deteriorate. As in the past, however, should somebody suddenly discover a huge amount of gold, its price would go down...

Great explanations, Dudes! Thanks a lot!