Europa Universalis IV: Developer diary 31 - A Point of Honor

Uesugi Kenshin

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I was waiting for a Japan or China DD.
Looks like Japan playing system really changed in EUIV, and its great. I can finally play as -my favorite- Uesugi Daimyo, that news are really great for me.

But now I'm wondering about discovering Japan. Are the European powers can teach them using gunpowder? Portugese did that in real history.
 

DanubianCossak

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For Trade on the Western Pacific Sea, people didn't need European-style ships. But it didn't mean they waren't interested in foreign trade.

As for Wokou, they were private free traders and pirates, after all, and there was no Japanese navy in this era, but allied navy of daimyos.

I think a unique NI "Tosen-Bugyo" can represent Japanese trade focused policy in that period well.

I didnt mention this, but yes, thats what the book described, there was no "state" Japanese navy, the military vessels (that i remember) belonged to individual daimyos, and were mostly used to ferry them around.

As for the sea trade, my understanding is that the Japanese couldnt trade with the Chinese (didnt have trade ships capable of making the safe voyage?), although they were interested. Basically each year a Portuguese ship (or was it a convoy?) would arrive to Japan and bring yearly amount of Chinese silk (Japanese really wanted all that silk), so this whole monopoly business deal was a huge source of income.

Dont know much about Wokou, thanks for mentioning that, could you recommend some good article on the subject?
 

chatnoir17

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As for the sea trade, my understanding is that the Japanese couldnt trade with the Chinese (didnt have trade ships capable of making the safe voyage?), although they were interested. Basically each year a Portuguese ship (or was it a convoy?) would arrive to Japan and bring yearly amount of Chinese silk (Japanese really wanted all that silk), so this whole monopoly business deal was a huge source of income.

I think there were several direct and indirect ways of Chinese-Japanese trade.
1. Direct sail to Chinese ports. It was dangerous, not only because this naval route wasn't safe due to storms (East China Sea isn't Adrian Sea) but also Ming forbid private trade. On the other hand, direct trade with China meant high return and Japanese ships had actually enough capability to sail to the continent. Japan was a tribute state of Ming, and while this status officially continued very short, vassals of the Shogunate, especially the Ouchi and Hosokawa clan were allowed to send their ships in China. Of course other daimyos could trade in China privately, but it was considered piracy by the Ming government before the 16th century.
2. Trade with Ryukyu: Japanese ships went to Ryukyu, sold Japanese goods and bought Chinese and Southeastasian goods. It was a very popular route, and that's why Ryukyu was flourished in the 15th and 16th century.
3. Trade with Korea: Some Korean ports had Japanese quarter. Not only Chinese goods, but Korean goods were traded.
4. Trade in Hokkaido: Ainu people had their original route with the Asian continent. After the isolation policy in the 17th century, Chinese silks arrived from the North.

Also, Chinese traders (officially banned by Ming) lived in Japanese cities in Kyushu, especially Nagasaki and Hakata.

Wokou was an unique phenomenon, but it is controversial in the modern historiography of Asian history. While Chinese and Korean historians consider them as "Japanese" pirates, Japanese scholars point their multicultural aspects.
 
Last edited:

DarthJF

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As for the sea trade, my understanding is that the Japanese couldnt trade with the Chinese (didnt have trade ships capable of making the safe voyage?), although they were interested. Basically each year a Portuguese ship (or was it a convoy?) would arrive to Japan and bring yearly amount of Chinese silk (Japanese really wanted all that silk), so this whole monopoly business deal was a huge source of income.

It wasn't really about the lack of ships (private merchants could and did travel to both China and South East Asia), but that Ming refused to trade with Japan because of Wokou attakcs. Before Portuguese arrived the trade between China and Japan went through Ryukyu (Okinawa) islands which traded both with Ming and Japanese. The first Portuguese who ended in Japan were in fact abroad a ship that was bound from China to Ryukyu and got blown off course by storm.
 

illathid

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Hmmm i read a book about that English navigator guy who crash landed in Japan, according to that book the Japs had a navy, lots of trade and even military vessels, however most of them were galleys (with oars) and not very big, the dominant characteristic was that they werent made for deep seas sail (even the smallest storm would sink them away from land), they were made for sailing between islands. Again, according to that book, the English navigator (who grew up in Bristol? shipyard) ended up making western style ship imitations for a certain daimyo, and these imitation ships were capable of going pretty much anywhere the contemporary English and Portuguese ships were able to, its just that Japanese werent interested in going anywhere.

Pretty sure the book you're referencing is Shōgun by James Clavell. If I remember correctly, it had a huge influence on western perception of Japanese culture, for better or worse.
 

Medicine Man

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I just wanted to pop in and comment on this DD. I am quite pleased with how Japan is going to work in EUIV; a very elegant, simple solution to the straightjacket-y contrivances that existed in EUIII. I can't wait to see details on how China and the various horde countries are going to work (oh, and a Byzantine DD).
 

Sakura

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Pretty sure the book you're referencing is Shōgun by James Clavell. If I remember correctly, it had a huge influence on western perception of Japanese culture, for better or worse.

Shogun was based on a real person, William Adams. He's probably referring to this book on Adams (though I think there was another relatively recent book on him that I've forgotten.)

You're right, though... Shogun had a very large cultural impact.
 

DanubianCossak

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I think it was Shogun, and i think it is based on real life history (though of course i dont know if everything is exactly accurate, but many of the cultural specifics should be). The author went great length into details, as the main character learns Japanese, so do you as reader etc. Loved the cultural shock that arose from some things that we take for granted, for example Europeans didnt like to take baths for fear of pneumonia, while Japanese were very clean people; the difference in perception of body/nudity/sexuality and even privacy (in those thin paper wall Japanese houses), i found it all highly amusing.
 

DarthJF

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I think it was Shogun, and i think it is based on real life history (though of course i dont know if everything is exactly accurate, but many of the cultural specifics should be).
Much of the book is correct, but alot of times the author didn't let facts stand in the way of a good story either, so don't take everything in it for granted. :)
 

grumphie

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it wasnt that they coudnt sail there, there wer eother easons. first of all, china was pissed off at japan for not activly stopping the wako pirates - often supported by local daimyo - that raidied shipping. on top of that, after the sengoku era, japan was isolated from the world, bar the dutch and koreans. japanese were forbidden to trade with china/korea, punishable by death. while there was some limited indirect trading through ryoku, there was no real trade with the outside world bar the few ships the dutch brought in each year. it was not untill commedore perry that trading on a larger scale(although forced) resumed.
 

king of AR

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it wasnt that they coudnt sail there, there wer eother easons. first of all, china was pissed off at japan for not activly stopping the wako pirates - often supported by local daimyo - that raidied shipping. on top of that, after the sengoku era, japan was isolated from the world, bar the dutch and koreans. japanese were forbidden to trade with china/korea, punishable by death. while there was some limited indirect trading through ryoku, there was no real trade with the outside world bar the few ships the dutch brought in each year. it was not untill commedore perry that trading on a larger scale(although forced) resumed.
"America meddling in things we shouldn't since the 1800's" .Oh and your welcome.
 

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Westernization of Japan: Gives it different Boni when Japan westernize (guns and artillery) or follow the old Ways (sword and bow)? Or must the player decide for himself: the Way of Iron Man's Bushido Codex or the Journey of Sponge Bob's Westernization?! Will higher Level Units have automatic fire weapons how in EU3: Asian Arquebusier or Banner Infantery?
 
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cybrxkhan

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Westernization of Japan: Gives it different Boni when Japan westernize (guns and artillery) or follow the old Ways (sword and bow)? Or must the player decide for himself: the Way of Iron Man's Bushido Codex or the Journey of Sponge Bob's Westernization?! Will higher Level Units have automatic fire weapons how in EU3: Asian Arquebusier or Banner Infantery?

Except that the "old ways" also included plenty of guns. Samurai loved their guns, contrary to the stereotype. If it killed well, it killed well. There were even plenty of schools of gunmanship similar to schools of archery or schools of swordsmanship. I really would not want the dichotomy between "old" and "new" in Japan to be as black and white as it was depicted in that terrible atrocious joke The Last Samurai
 

Cybvep

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May 25, 2009
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The scoring system sounds great. I've been waiting for sth like that for some time, because scores help me to determine my progress and give a sense of accomplishment. Also, it's sth which you can freely ignore if you don't care about it. Anyway, good job :).