Europa Universalis IV Developer Diary 11 - The Cost & Reward for Technology

[AndreasPhokas]

to an extent it sucks that it seems monarch power is tied into so much but then again it adds fun imo. It'd be interesting playing through a period of decline and try to keep my nation alive, then i get a great reformer king and lead my nation back to dominance!

 

[208]

So how will EUIV reconcile two such opposing historical truths? A time period when British technological progress was an order of magnitude faster than any other country in the world, but when one of the least capable monarchs in history was on the throne?

Maybe more advanced forms of government could affect the number of monarch points generated? Not a straight up bonus, but perhaps making the individual ruler less and less important (for good or bad) overall as you move towards a more collective government style.

(I've actually gotten a ruler WORSE than 3-3-3 in EU3... I didn't even know it was possible!)

 

[MilosM]

(I've actually gotten a ruler WORSE than 3-3-3 in EU3... I didn't even know it was possible!)

How come? You should post it in strange screenshots thread.

 

[nalivayko]

I don't think so.
There is however a mysterious trade route going north from the north sea as visible in this screenshot: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2724/euiv6noscale.jpg
But whether it's going to Scotland, Norway or Iceland is currently unknown.

Archangelsk

 

[Avindian]

I love the new tech system, and that every tech will be relevant; it was hard to get excited about government techs that didn't lead to new buildings or NI slots, for example. Keep it up!

 

[nalivayko]

Administrative technology seems fine, as it has everything to do with improving the stability and infrastructure of your country.

Military technology on the other hand doesn't make sense. The term "Military" covers land, sea and air, but here it only covers land. Why not name it what it is, Land or Army Technology?

Diplomatic Technology is even more odd. Diplomacy has always been around since the dawn of man and isn't really something I would consider a technology. Wether it's about administration, warfare or trade, diplomacy will always be a part of it. Is diplomacy less relevant if you're a land based Austria compared to a seafaring England? I just don't see why trade and naval techs have been named "diplomatic" when Naval technology would be more suitable.

Administrative Technology, Naval Technology and Land technology would make more sense in my head at least

This. You do not have to tie the technology routes to monarch three stats. Tie naval and land into his military and let his diplomatic rating effect diplomacy per se.

 

[208]

- On the right side of the Admin category, you have, from top to bottom: Your number of national ideas (probably number of categories) available to you at your current tech, and then your tax revenue. I'm guessing that the little 'castle' icon doesn't actually mean anything, as its in each category; perhaps its just an indicator that 'these are your current tech bonuses.' I could be completely wrong on that, and probably am, but given that there's no numbers or anything, I got no clue here.

I think the middle icon is Production efficiency.

- On the right of the Diplo category, from top to bottom, are the bonuses for trade revenue and trading range/naval supply range (top two), production revenue (though I'd think that would be admin, unless thats actually tariff efficiency?) and colonial range (middle two), and diplomatic prestige and that mysterious castle icon (bottom two). I'm really uncertain on these.

I think the middle-left icon is some kind of cultural bonus (looks like a paintbrush and a sculptor's hammer?) - it also looks like perhaps some kind of construction bonus, but that seems like it would fit more into Administrative tech than Diplomatic.

- On the right of the Mil category, the icons are pretty tricky to me. The top left icon is almost certainly shock bonus, and the one below it is almost certainly a supply/attrition bonus. Guessing that shield is a military prestige bonus. The two right icons, one of them is probably maneuver, but I can't figure out which (I'm leaning toward the top one that almost looks like the hammer and sickle). There doesn't seem to be a discipline bonus, as neither icon really seems to make sense for that. *Unless* the top left icon is discipline (doesn't look right to me), and the middle right icon is shock. Whatever the bonuses are, they'll probably make more sense when we understand the military model in this game better.

Top right does look like maneuver, but maneuver is a leader stat in EU3 - so I'll guess it's actually Tactics. Middle left is definitely supply limit. Top left could be Shock as you say (but there's no Fire?). Middle right I'm guessing is a combat width modifier of some kind.

I'm not sure what the 3 castles are either but I'll hazard a couple of guesses. Maybe they are representative of your overall tech level in that area (e.g. those castles could be "medieval tech"), but I don't see that such a thing would be necessary to take up a spot in the UI like that (unless there was some kind of associated effect). Or maybe it's Tech Group, which implies your tech group could be different for different tech categories, as people have requested before (e.g. european-style castles all around in this case. Maybe there's a distinction between west European and east European castles - I'm not a castle expert - or maybe Poland is in the Western group now)

PS, I like what seems to be the new alert icon for the provincial decisions; the old one looked just like a green blob, rather than a province. This one actually looks like something.

Oh is THAT what that green thing is supposed to be?

 

[208]

How come? You should post it in strange screenshots thread.

Sadly I don't have a screenshot, and I'm pretty sure I don't have a save either... he was a 3-2-3 ruler IIRC.

 

[Ephafn]

The one big issue I have with this system, is that there isn't many ways for a country with very specific technological needs to focus in one of the three category at the expense of others. The only ways I can think of is the selection of the ruler for republics, and by paying for a 3 stars advisor in your focused category while not getting any advisors in the others.

On top of that, focused countries are likely to be taking Ideas from the category they need most, at the expense of that very category technologies. Would it really make sense for Holland to have the latest military and administrative technologies, while lagging behind in trade and naval techs due to spending most of its Diplomacy points on Ideas and Trade-related actions? I guess this could represent their traders being entrenched in their current ways and the monarch being unable to make them budge, but it still sound strange to me.

 

[B. Hayrettin]

Here's my main concern about using monarch points to buy tech levels, using a historical example.

Britain in the late 18th and early 19th century entered the Industrial Revolution. They developed the steam engine, the cotton mill, and methods of mass-producing iron and steel. They built canals and long-distance paved roads and railways, they mass-produced rifles and cannons, they developed steamships. They introduced income tax and the National Debt. It was a time when technological progress leaped ahead, leaving the rest of the world trailing far behind: and it allowed Britain to become the dominant world power in the 19th century due solely to their advanced industrial and technological progress.

And who was the king of Great Britain while all this innovation was happening? George III. Mad King George, who foamed at the mouth and supposedly mistook a tree for the king of Prussia. A prime candidate for 3-3-3 stats (or the EUIV equivalent) if ever there was one.

So how will EUIV reconcile two such opposing historical truths? A time period when British technological progress was an order of magnitude faster than any other country in the world, but when one of the least capable monarchs in history was on the throne?

Guess it was the americans who mass produced small arms during the civil war, with the invention of interchangable parts and saw it at an expo the british were really astonished by the robustness and accuracy!

U're right about the monarch thing -with no westernisation it will be difficult to make constant progress. When Peter revolutionised Russia it more or less went on that way. Ottomans had quasi modernisation too in mid-19th century but its out of EU spectrum though. I think this can be a one time monarch effort with great monarchpower points.

Still it will be a tradeoff btw developmet and tech though, esp for big nations with many provinces to build up. remember the magistrate system for construction... :blink:

 

[C.N.]

Next week, we take a look at the most eagerly awaited details on Europa Universalis IV...

Considering the number of complaints about the generic missions in EU3, my guess is that the next DD will cover missions.
(Other likely options might be colonization, uncivs or Ottomans.)

 

[Don_Quigleone]

For those that decry the focus on monarchs, I view the monarch as not just the individual, but also his general administration/government. Some monarchs have strong governments, others ... not so much.

That said, these technologies seem to be more state focused, and not about general scientific progress. Will there be something separate for more general technological discoveries and philosophical ideas?

 

[Fawr]

Kaspar's post raises a good point IMO, some countries didnt get ahead in military technology because they didnt need it. Didnt european warfare develop so quickly because european countries were almost constantly at war with each other? I think its a good idea to give a boost to a technology if the country is already practicing alot in the technology's area. e.g France would get a bonus to its military research due to its current war with Spain.
It could work similarily to whats being implemented in MotE

This worries me too. It sounds like the best way to get ahead in military tech is not to use your military points for anything else (assault, leaders, etc). Which means we will still have the OPM germans at the top of the tech tree (and also helps tech in isolated countries with nothing else to do like in america/sub saharan africa).

EDIT: And also: "When buying a new technology level, there is a base cost for each country of 400 power, no matter the category. This base cost is then modified by several factors, such as certain advisors, a neighbor bonus, certain ideas, etc...Non-Western European technology groups still have a penalty on top of the base cost"

So it's not just the monarch abilities and point spending.

Except that countries who are already past the 999 cost in monarch points won't see any effects from any of the modifiers. Which means for those countries there is abosolutely nothing they can do to increase/decrease their tech rate - other than get lucky with monarchs.

It's mentioned that there are modifiers on tech cost; presumably that would mean there a both positive and negative ones. If that's the case I can hypothesize that if your a influential trading nation then that would drive down the cost of diplomatic tech. If you got a crappy Monarch that would mean he could still do things with the limited points he has, but not truly harness the situation like a great monarch would.

Fingers crossed. I'm also hoping for bonuses when other people (in the same tech group) are ahead of you.

So, it's been said that OPM will no longer be ahead due to not having anything else to spend money on. But to me it seems the other way around. While in EU3 you had to spend approximately the same percentage of your income to build one improvement in OPM or ten in ten provinces of major country, here you have to spend tenfold the amount of monarch points in the latter case. What mechanic will prevent OPMs from having every improvement and tech leadership, while its big neighbour has to choose whether to build markets everywhere or to research another level of tech (which opens another improvement to build everywhere and abandon another level of tech)?

Unless buildings are no longer province based it sounds like new provinces will still be a drain on your tech, but only if you build buildings on them. That may even penalise large countries tech more than EU3 did.

 

[Simon B]

Is it me or using monarch point to do everthing seems a little bit "gamey" to me... I mean.. use points to "buy" technology... Or did I understand corectly that you also need to use points to build new building?? That doesn't seems that right nor historical to me.... Is it just me?

Edit: and next week DD will be about colonisation!!

 

[King of Men]

There's a typo in the screenie, 'Admistrative' for 'Administrative'. Also 'Earthern' should be 'Earthen', but I have to say I hope this name gets changed; it's really silly to "invent" the big heap of earth in 1444. Make it "Wagon fortress" or something, that fits the time period.

 

[Red_warning]

I also find it a little strange the way things are lumped into these three categories. Paradox is clearly very restricted by the three monarch stats and are trying to make too many things fit evenly into those categories, but I don't think it'll be so bad in gameplay.

True, to put naval tech, trade etc into a single category and make tech gain only rely on the monarch's skills may not make logical sense but it can still work well game-play wise I'm sure.

 

[turnad]

True, to put naval tech, trade etc into a single category and make tech gain only rely on the monarch's skills may not make logical sense but it can still work well game-play wise I'm sure.

That is probably because navy and trade directly influence each other. I believe one of the devs has said that increasing your trade will increase your naval force limit and a bigger and better navy allows to exert a bigger influence on trade (at least sea based). A good way to think of the Diplo techs is how much influence your country exerts over the world.

 

[Orinsul]

All looks great but theres something i dont get.

If the same points are used for building courthouses as researching, then wont 'those weird situations where a small minor power that sits and does nothing can become the tech leader simply because it has nothing else to spend its money on' still happen, just as much if not more often?

The only thing thats happened in the word money has been switched to monarch power, but its still a point that can be spent either on province improvements or technology, so large countries with more to spend it on aside from technology will experience the exact same probably the DD says this set up is created to avoid, as its still something being spent here or there with small countries having less places to spend it no?
That its spending power points and not money doesnt change it does it? if anything it makes it worse as theres less monarch power than money so big countries would have to spread it even thinner, right?

 

[turnad]

We haven't seen the modifiers yet, so a OPM may find their tech to be more expensive then a larger country. Saying that, it still makes sense; the system would mirror how, say, the Netherlands were an advanced nation as opposed to say Russia. But again, being bigger may net you more positive modifiers than what an OPM could have.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

I think that there will be propably some neighbour bonus - more countries having good tech, should decrease the tech cost. Maybe also having neighbour with other tech group, that is better than you, will trigger the same thing?