Europa Universalis IV Developer Diary 10 - It all belongs to Mother Russia...

[Sardoniscorn]

I'm not merely trying to be a naysayer about the NI's, i'm just trying to understand.

If we, for example, wanted to play a Quality/Innovative/Naval Russia, would it be possible or does the nature of the NI's make it infeasible?

Please help me dispel my skepticism regarding this feature.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Presumably you could do that through other National Ideas. You don't *have*to take the Russia-specific tree, or you could take that AND a quality/naval one.

 

[Chamboozer]

Presumably you could do that through other National Ideas. You don't *have*to take the Russia-specific tree, or you could take that AND a quality/naval one.

You do have to take the Russia specific tree. However you can also take Quality, Innovative, and Naval trees as an aside from that.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Oh my God, this game will be sooooo great! Seems like some people here lack abit of the big picture, or the imagination perhaps, on how this game will play out based on the total info we have recieved so far. EU4 will be more awesome then I ever dared to hope for. Keep up the good work lads.

 

[Sun_Wu]

You do have to take the Russia specific tree. However you can also take Quality, Innovative, and Naval trees as an aside from that.

In that situation think of them more as sweaters from grandma at Christmas, nice if you want em and you don't have to use them if you don't like them.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

I'm so looking forward to play Sweden now, if Russia will finally start forming in the games. Just think of it how much more interesting it will be to play Russias neighbours like Poland, Sweden and the Ottomans if Russia forms to a potential gigant in the east.

It's the developers intention to make the game challenging and fun for more then just the first 100 years of gameplay this time arround, and that shows in every part of the game mechanisms revealed so far. Even diplomacy in multiplayer will be improved alot by the diplo-point costs system.

Paradox really have a master piece in the making here. My expectations are higher then to any game under development ever.

 

[nalivayko]

What would you pick for Russia's national ideas?

Bear Cavalry?

I'll throw some names, without thinking too much about modifiers

Third Rome - no other Orthodox nation could've picked that one, rather unique... I am afraid it's going to be put into nation-specific decisions though, although it's a national idea if you've ever seen one in history.

Streltsy - keep, but re-think. Streltsy corps was a natural (to other nations) process of re-organizing the army, moving away from relying on feudal forces to a standing army. Discipline increase (yes, I am aware that Streltsy caused much unrest further down the road, but so did Janissaries).

Siberian Frontier - I almost started arguing against it, but then thought better of it. It makes sense that Russia gets a better a chance to colonize Siberia than, say, Spain. Russian Cossack explorers were used to colder environments. However, a bonus should only apply to Siberian and North (the very northern) American territories.

Opprichina - keep, but tie it to spy missions, reducing power of aristocracy, increase of monarch points, etc. Nothing to do with cheaper infanry, imo.

Table of Ranks - keep

Russian Idea to rule all ideas:

Science of Victory (Suvorov's Science of Victory would add shock modifiers, possibly infantry speed).

All I've got for now, not being lazy, but have a project to finish before midnight.

 

[turnad]

Bear Cavalry?

I'll throw some names, without thinking too much about modifiers

Third Rome - no other Orthodox nation could've picked that one, rather unique... I am afraid it's going to be put into nation-specific decisions though, although it's a national idea if you've ever seen one in history.

Streltsy - keep, but re-think. Streltsy corps was a natural (to other nations) process of re-organizing the army, moving away from relying on feudal forces to a standing army. Discipline increase (yes, I am aware that Streltsy caused much unrest further down the road, but so did Janissaries).

Siberian Frontier - I almost started arguing against it, but then thought better of it. It makes sense that Russia gets a better a chance to colonize Siberia than, say, Spain. Russian Cossack explorers were used to colder environments. However, a bonus should only apply to Siberian and North (the very northern) American territories.

Opprichina - keep, but tie it to spy missions, reducing power of aristocracy, increase of monarch points, etc. Nothing to do with cheaper infanry, imo.

Table of Ranks - keep

Russian Idea to rule all ideas:

Science of Victory (Suvorov's Science of Victory would add shock modifiers, possibly infantry speed).

All I've got for now, not being lazy, but have a project to finish before midnight.

I agree with those, especially the Third Rome one, I'm surprised that wasn't in there.

 

[Talq]

Siberian Frontier - I almost started arguing against it, but then thought better of it. It makes sense that Russia gets a better a chance to colonize Siberia than, say, Spain. Russian Cossack explorers were used to colder environments. However, a bonus should only apply to Siberian and North (the very northern) American territories.

Johan clarified later that it only applied to territories with a land connection to the capital (ie Siberia).

Question to Paradox:

Why so many Russian decisions are focused around cheap infantry and extra manpower? Russia is not unique at that, and, frankly, the fact that the Russian generals were almost always liberal with soldiers' lives doesn't mean Russia had significantly more manpower compared to other countries of its size (hard to find one now, but not so in EU timeframe).

The reasons behind Russia's large armies:

1. Territory. Not the largest around and historic army size comparisons reflect it. Russia outnumbers smaller countries (Sweden, Teutonic Order), is more or less on equal terms with Poland-Lithuania and is outnumbered by the Ottomans.
2. Serfs = easy draft (more manpower) + cheaper enrollment (obvious). Serfs are not unique to Russia. Russian cheap infantry is not culture specific.
3. EU2 and EU3 tradition and religion settings would better explain the other reasons behind Russian cheap infantry and expanded manpower. Again, something that is not unique to Russia and something that shouldn't be pre-determined by unique Russian ideas.

Sigh. For what it's worth, I do support unique national ideas, but these make little sense to me. Mods shall help, I imagine.

You do realise a number of other sources for bonuses have been removed (sliders) or changed have you?. In any event, adding x/y/z to a feature instead of just a nation runs into the difficulty that other countries can have the feature, but demonstratively didn't have the bonus. For example, the Orthodox Byzantines had notoriously bad manpower post 1200 (extended period, because by 1400 the Byzantines didn't have much land either).

You also do not know what the Russian base manpower/land force limits actually are (no, you can't look at EU3 because numerous game concepts have been changed).

 

[MasterOfGrey]

This looks really good and I'm fond of some of the finer details here.

I'm especially glad about that screenshot, looks like they've fixed up my pet peeves about the province borders in that area so I'm really thrilled now.

 

[nalivayko]

Johan clarified later that it only applied to territories with a land connection to the capital (ie Siberia).



You do realise a number of other sources for bonuses have been removed (sliders) or changed have you?. In any event, adding x/y/z to a feature instead of just a nation runs into the difficulty that other countries can have the feature, but demonstratively didn't have the bonus. For example, the Orthodox Byzantines had notoriously bad manpower post 1200 (extended period, because by 1400 the Byzantines didn't have much land either).

You also do not know what the Russian base manpower/land force limits actually are (no, you can't look at EU3 because numerous game concepts have been changed).

I do realize the mechanics have changed, what I am (slightly) concerned with is treating Russian manpower as Russia's unique feature, which is not. Has nothing to do with sliders. If serfdom can be represented with other mechanics, fine by me. However, I am finally beginning to think of EU4 as a comeback to EU1 ideas. Russia = cheap numerous infantry, Poland = cheap cavalry, etc.

Yes, it was the case historically (although I would argue "numerous", please compare Russian population with W. and C. Europe in EU timeframe and/or today), but it was more of a case serfs = cheap infantry, lots of landed aristocrats = cheap cavalry.

Still too early to worry and I can mod NIs if I really care that much about them when the game comes out.

 

[Medicine Man]

Looks interesting so far. I am curious why the Siberian Frontier national concept comes so late in the tree. Is it assumed that early expansion into the untamed east will be by old fashioned horde busting?

We'll have to see what quantitative and qualitative bonuses other major land powers get before we'll know how strong (relatively) the forcelimits bonus for Russia are. If there are at least 50% worth of forcelimit bonuses somewhere in the quality idea then the russian national concept is probably not a game breaker.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

I'm not merely trying to be a naysayer about the NI's, i'm just trying to understand.

If we, for example, wanted to play a Quality/Innovative/Naval Russia, would it be possible or does the nature of the NI's make it infeasible?

Please help me dispel my skepticism regarding this feature.

You'll acquire your nation specific ones automatically as you go along but you can still take the quality, Innovative and Naval idea trees and get full benefits from them, with the bonuses of your native ideas making your quality focus that much more awesome. Sure your navy may not match up so well to someone with specific naval bonuses (like Britain), but you can still be on par or better than everyone else no problem. (And really, Britain is an island, if they can't focus on their navy better than someone who's still largely land based, no matter the configuration, then there's something wrong.)

 

[Ferric_Oxide]

I'm not merely trying to be a naysayer about the NI's, i'm just trying to understand.

If we, for example, wanted to play a Quality/Innovative/Naval Russia, would it be possible or does the nature of the NI's make it infeasible?

Please help me dispel my skepticism regarding this feature.

The way I understand it is that you get about 56 ideas.
7 of which are NIs.

With the other 49, I guess you have some room to play with.

 

[Taklagarn]

I am quite positive to these changes since this will allow more nations become more dangerous at late game, something that was quite uncommon in EU III sadly. I hope that we will see more major nations form in EU IV so we don't have to rely on Trollhemia, Blobstria or BBB to have something for an endgame experience, which were only to beat in one war and the collapsed anyways... But I think that giving the AI these bonuses will allow for a more fun and varied endgame, also, help the player if he wants to.

 

[Sarmatian]

Indeed.

As Johan said, there's nothing stopping you going with both quality and quantity.

 

[Narvi]

Indeed.

As Johan said, there's nothing stopping you going with both quality and quantity.

But I cannot go with just quality. Why? What historical process rules that out during those 400 years covered by the game?

 

[unmerged(195940)]

Even Eu3 had some country decisions for some countries and, in some cases, they were far from irrelevant (Prussian Military Reform anyone?). The good thing about new National Ideas is that every country will have them, although in some cases they will be specifically chosen for that country.

What I will miss is probably the negative modifiers which came with sliders. The new idea system seems very "additive" to me.

Anyway, I really really hope we will have the options of being notified of dynamical historical events which happen in other countries (without turning on alerts for all the events): this would add a lot to immersion I think.

Can't wait to play!

 

[HolisticGod]

The only problem with the NIs in general, rather than specific, I can see is this.

First, you have no option. The NI comes automatically at the top of the tree. Perfectly fine with me.

Second, it seems a great deal of the game is being funneled through these ideas. Again, perfectly fine with me.

But, the first plus the second means

Third, a country like Russia will receive significant quantity boosts with no trade-off in quality. Requiring such a trade-off in an automatic NI really would be overly-deterministic. This means that, one, Russia will not field vast, endlessly replenished armies because its rulers don't mind sending barefoot peasants with half a pike and a shoe between them to certain death but because, I suppose, in this timeline its population is presumed to be much greater than that of other European nations? And two, NIs in general are, when equal in power to this, likely to produce somewhat perverse results. In MP, in particular, this is a bad balance problem.

However, it could well be that you can only reach the 50% bonus by following a quantity path?

 

[Talq]

Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Indeed.

As Johan said, there's nothing stopping you going with both quality and quantity.

But I cannot go with just quality. Why? What historical process rules that out during those 400 years covered by the game?

Actually you can, mechanically (so you have a high-quality army that is larger than the owner of Russia's provinces would otherwise have).

You can also presumably make all cavalry armies that don't approach your force limit as well (so those ideas are irrelevant). Do try to avoid sobbing on the forums if that strategy results in embarrassing losses.

But to be blunt, its not clear what point you are trying to make, but it isn't a good one.