Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise – Dev diary 4: American Progression

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Sun_Wu

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Doesn't look half-bad, but I'm wondering about the said progression from nomadic to sedentary... For many tribes it was the other way around: The population decline due to Old World diseases, encroaching Europeans and/or other native tribes and of course the introduction of the horse meant that previously sedentary tribes became nomadic (and stayed that way up until modern times).
That wouldn't be fun for many players.
 

Novacat

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Here are the various idea benefits of native ideas...

Native Administrative Ideas -
Idea 1: Build Cost
Idea 2: Global Tax Modifier
Idea 3: Stability Cost Modifier
Idea 4: Global Revolt Risk Reduction
Idea 5: -100% Admin tech cost reduction
Native Diplomacy Ideas -
Idea 1: Unknown, New Modifier (Probably related to resettlement mechanics)
Idea 2: Diplomatic Reputation
Idea 3: Relations Decay of Me
Idea 4: Colonist (Probably +1)
Idea 5: Diplo tech cost reduction (Probably -100%)
Native Military Ideas -
Idea 1: Land Morale
Idea 2: Leader Shock (Probably +1)
Idea 3: Land Force Limit
Idea 4: Land Attrition Reduction
Idea 5: Mil tech cost reduction (Probably -100%)

The lightning bulb next to each idea group also indicates that there are benefits to completing the idea groups, but those benefits are, if they exist, completely unknown.

1) I'm surprized to see this new tab with a Native warrior in the contry tabs.
Shouldn't this replace the technology tab, or do Natives keep a technology tab, for example in case they westernize? (I undestand this may be work in progress, but this 11th tab is quite suprising, because implying it was re-made )

You can still research normal techs and take normal ideas while taking native ideas on top of those.
 

anomalacaris

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Here are the various idea benefits of native ideas...

....

You can still research normal techs and take normal ideas while taking native ideas on top of those.

Er... these are somehow in the data files already?
Colonist bonus seem insanely good for this part of world...

Edit: I see how you are doing it.. haha
 
Last edited:

BritNavFan

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Couple of questions:
  • Can we mod other tags to use these ideas?
  • In the current game, all North American provinces start in the culture group "North American". Is this still the case, or have you made North American natives more culturally diverse?
 

arosenberger14

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No offense, but the more I hear about this DLC the less enthused I am. My first thought at last week's dev diary was "Oh great, more nations to enter into cross-continental coalitions against me," and this week was "Trying to shoehorn in a sub-game in for the Native American's? Wonder what this will break." Hopefully there will be changes to colonization and managing colonies that make this worthwhile, but I'd prefer Paradox to focus on more important features such as the Reformation, HRE, coalitions, and the lategame,
 

Novacat

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Couple of questions:
  • Can we mod other tags to use these ideas?


  • Good question. At first I thought they might be activated with the Tribal = yes flag, but the devs stated that these mechanics are only available to native north americans, which means there will likely be something else.


    No offense, but the more I hear about this DLC the less enthused I am. My first thought at last week's dev diary was "Oh great, more nations to enter into cross-continental coalitions against me," and this week was "Trying to shoehorn in a sub-game in for the Native American's? Wonder what this will break." Hopefully there will be changes to colonization and managing colonies that make this worthwhile, but I'd prefer Paradox to focus on more important features such as the Reformation, HRE, coalitions, and the lategame,

    Initially I was excited because I thought these changes would also apply to other tribal natives such as the Sub-Saharan africans and maybe the Steppe Hordes. But it was confirmed that these mechanics are Native North American only which has me a little bummed out. It is kind of annoying that native americans are going to end up being even stronger and more viable to play than Steppe Hordes, and it feels like we had the playability of Steppe Hordes taken out just so Paradox could charge us for a DLC later down the road to make them playable again.
 

BritNavFan

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I'd prefer Paradox to focus on more important features such as the Reformation, HRE, coalitions, and the lategame,
After waiting through the entire development cycle of EU3 for them to do anything for any part of the world outside Europe, I am incredibly happy that for once they are not focusing on things I find completely irrelevant such as the HRE.
 

Sun_Wu

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Er... these are somehow in the data files already?
Colonist bonus seem insanely good for this part of world...
Each idea icon represents a certain type of bonus, allowing him to surmise the type though not the power of the ideas.
 

Jaol

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This all sounds interesting. Does the native tech progression have options for after contact with non-native society? I.e. getting horses, guns, etc. Or is that represented by normal tech levels?

Also, regarding Conquest of Paradise more generally: will all the possible trade routes still be visible from the beginning of the game, or will the patch/DLC have some way to have these appear as they are discovered (similar to the canals in V2)? It seems like the random map generator won't be nearly as much fun if I can just follow the trade routes to know where to explore (as a European), or where the invasion will come from (as a native).
 

LiberiusX

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No offense, but the more I hear about this DLC the less enthused I am. My first thought at last week's dev diary was "Oh great, more nations to enter into cross-continental coalitions against me," and this week was "Trying to shoehorn in a sub-game in for the Native American's? Wonder what this will break." Hopefully there will be changes to colonization and managing colonies that make this worthwhile, but I'd prefer Paradox to focus on more important features such as the Reformation, HRE, coalitions, and the lategame,

I don't have the issue with coalitions, but I totally agree on every other point. I was thinking the same thing about them changing the mechanics of tech and buildings. Specifically "Paradox, are you sure you want to open this can of worms?" I just see so many problems with this. Maybe it will work fine for American Indians...but I can already see the forum drumbeat for unique techs and buildings for every tech/culture/government group now.
 

BritNavFan

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A third question. In the current game, there are just two pagan religions, they are spread around the world, and the mechanics that make it possible for Europeans to conquer the Inca quickly apply to all pagans. Is any of that going to change? The Inca were really an exception to the rule. It would be nice for the Oirat Horde to be pagan again, instead of Buddhist for game mechanics reasons.
 

WanderV

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I don't have the issue with coalitions, but I totally agree on every other point. I was thinking the same thing about them changing the mechanics of tech and buildings. Specifically "Paradox, are you sure you want to open this can of worms?" I just see so many problems with this. Maybe it will work fine for American Indians...but I can already see the forum drumbeat for unique techs and buildings for every tech/culture/government group now.
Crusader Kings II lives with it fine.
 

Phelan

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I would love to see a different GUI for the american nations. I CKII we got unique GUI for different cultures. That was really great.
 

Carewolf2

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Would have preferred if you offset the tech tree more so tech-level 1 was much earlier tech and most euro-asian countries started higher. This sounds like a hack instead of a proper solution.
 

Nyrael

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No offense, but the more I hear about this DLC the less enthused I am. My first thought at last week's dev diary was "Oh great, more nations to enter into cross-continental coalitions against me," and this week was "Trying to shoehorn in a sub-game in for the Native American's? Wonder what this will break." Hopefully there will be changes to colonization and managing colonies that make this worthwhile, but I'd prefer Paradox to focus on more important features such as the Reformation, HRE, coalitions, and the lategame,

EU4 epxnaions will be released for 2 or 3 years at least. There is no need to hurry.
Also, this is actually more important. While what you mentioned is needed, at least it is in playable state while NA nations are the least playable states ATM. PI should really first make another part of world at least playable before focusing on improving a part that is good enough at the moment.
 

DarkVadek

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I was thinking, what about an event that happens like once every 50 years, and that reads something like "Some hunters and other members of your tribe have recently started to go to *neighboring province* for food and resources" and that gives you the option to colonize it (if it's empty) or a casus belli to both you and the other nation if it's inhabited?
 

TheDarkMaster

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Is there a reason you guys didn't just add something like an extra 10 techs or so that were between techs 2 and 3?
 

LiberiusX

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Crusader Kings II lives with it fine.

OK, I only own Vanilla CKII, and played like 50 hours or so. From what I observed though, tech and buildings were very simple compared to EUIV. I didn't play any Muslims or Vikings, as I did not have the appropriate expansions.

As I remember it for various European Christians:

Military Tech increased unit effectiveness on a mostly linear scale. Economic tech unlocked new buildings. Cultural tech improved relations effects and country management. Buildings usually increased tax or levies by a absolute amount, with universities and monasteries increasing tech spread by percentages. Pretty simple system if you ask me.

Did this work differently for Pagans and Muslims?

Edit: For perspective. increases in tech in EUIV, can lead to geometric improvements in performance of one's Economy, Navy, or Military. It is a much deeper system IMHO, as the player is constantly forced to make decisions on how to most effectively spend their MPs, and to a lesser extent, ducats.
 
Last edited:

Jaol

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Increases diplomatic reputation, and with more native states, diplomacy is important
Glad to hear that New World diplomacy is getting reworked, but I hope there's more to it than just a few modifiers/bonuses.

Alliances between the various tribal coalitions and the European colonial powers were common and one of the most interesting parts of North American history, but it's pretty much impossible to represent in EU4 currently. First, no European power is going to spend one of its precious diplomatic relations on an alliance with a tribal nation. Second, the AI doesn't seem able to understand the value of this sort of alliance--it just sees a far-away nation with a weak army and navy, and says no. Afaict, you'd need some major changes--like cross-technology group alliances not counting against the diplomatic relations cap, or an AI that can evaluate alliance offers based on relative strength in a particular geographic region--to represent these alliances properly.

So I'm hoping CoP addresses these deeper problems with getting the diplomatic model to fit New World alliances and give us richer interactions between the natives and the colonists.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Glad to hear that New World diplomacy is getting reworked, but I hope there's more to it than just a few modifiers/bonuses.

Alliances between the various tribal coalitions and the European colonial powers were common and one of the most interesting parts of North American history, but it's pretty much impossible to represent in EU4 currently. First, no European power is going to spend one of its precious diplomatic relations on an alliance with a tribal nation. Second, the AI doesn't seem able to understand the value of this sort of alliance--it just sees a far-away nation with a weak army and navy, and says no. Afaict, you'd need some major changes--like cross-technology group alliances not counting against the diplomatic relations cap, or an AI that can evaluate alliance offers based on relative strength in a particular geographic region--to represent these alliances properly.

So I'm hoping CoP addresses these deeper problems with getting the diplomatic model to fit New World alliances and give us richer interactions between the natives and the colonists.
Considering we will have a bunch of new colonial nations that the settlers will set up instead of managing the colony lands themselves, that problem should mostly go away since the Europeans no longer need to burn a diplo relation to get an alliance.