EUM Map Proposal and Rules - Discussion

[I Killed Kenny]

and Ferdinand is Fernando

 

[cccino]

Final map is done and will be uploaded soon.
Final stats will be completed as soon as possible (a few days).
Rules will be collated, updated and rewritten for clarity shortly after that.

 

[Bagricula]

3c, in case you missed this. The province of Lorraine is listed as 4 in the stats but appears as 3 on the economic map. Also, you had said earlier that Bar would be added to the Duchy of Lorraine.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

Final map is done and will be uploaded soon.
Final stats will be completed as soon as possible (a few days).
Rules will be collated, updated and rewritten for clarity shortly after that.

excellent job 3C! excellent job!

 

[Longinus]

hey 3c, Kiev and Halicz should belong to Hungary, it's up to new history if it will be returned

also, could you please also divide Radom and give half of it to Mazovia (new prov. would be Warszawa I guess)

 

[unmerged(945)]

hey 3c, Kiev and Halicz should belong to Hungary, it's up to new history if it will be returned

also, could you please also divide Radom and give half of it to Mazovia (new prov. would be Warszawa I guess)

If I play Hungary I would just love to get my hands on Kiev Shouldn't the two provinces in question be Lvov and Halicz though?

 

[Longinus]

If I play Hungary I would just love to get my hands on Kiev Shouldn't the two provinces in question be Lvov and Halicz though?

gosh, it happend for the second time, I meant Lvov and Halicz of/c

 

[elvain]

oh, I can't fnd the map... is it online and I'm just dumb, or it isn't online yet?

 

[unmerged(945)]

oh, I can't fnd the map... is it online and I'm just dumb, or it isn't online yet?

It is in the "Charts of Lands and States (Map and Rules)" thread.

 

[elvain]

It is in the "Charts of Lands and States (Map and Rules)" thread.

thanks

I like the changes

 

[cccino]

3c, in case you missed this. The province of Lorraine is listed as 4 in the stats but appears as 3 on the economic map. Also, you had said earlier that Bar would be added to the Duchy of Lorraine.

yeah yeah. if you actually look at the last version of the map, lorraine DOES own bar, and the province is value 4. AFAIK both maps were up prior to your last message, possibly prior to your first.

stats get done when i get a chance. all editing is done on the map first, then on the database, then eventually online. i wish i had a script to convert the database into forum-script!

hey 3c, Kiev and Halicz should belong to Hungary, it's up to new history if it will be returned

also, could you please also divide Radom and give half of it to Mazovia (new prov. would be Warszawa I guess)

yeah yeah i know i know. frankly, i can't be bothered redrawing the river. And Ile de France would have to be split into three provinces if I was to be consistent about river-spanning areas. I know masovia is a lot larger than ile de france, but population-wise, does it deserve the extra province?

hey 3c, Kiev and Halicz should belong to Hungary, it's up to new history if it will be returned

on Casimirs death in 1370 Louis the Great of Hungary, in accordance with previous treaties, became king Of Poland, Galicia and Lodomeria; and in 1382, by the marriage of Louiss daughter with Ladislaus II., Galicia, which he had regarded as part of his Hungarian rather than of his Polish possessions, became definitively assigned to Poland.

Galicia (Halicz/Lwow) only became part of hungary because they shared a HoS. Even though Louis considered it part of Hungary, it never really was, and in any case it was "definitively" assigned to Poland in 1382.

So, now to what I came online to say:
While the forums were down, and I was procrastinating from study, I started mucking about with the map again. I've redrawn Bohemia, Saxony and Austria properly this time, and added a few provinces on the east of the caspian so that Timur and Toqtamish Khan can have some fun.

I also *SHOCKHORRORGASP* removed Montferrat. I know i know they had a few important marriages but frankly so did half of the minor states in europe, and they are really really small.

 

[Longinus]

yeah yeah i know i know. frankly, i can't be bothered redrawing the river. And Ile de France would have to be split into three provinces if I was to be consistent about river-spanning areas. I know masovia is a lot larger than ile de france, but population-wise, does it deserve the extra province?

I think it does, I mean Mazovia definitely deserves a second province. It was quite a powerful duchy at that time, able to defend against Liths and TO, it was also quite wealthy and big, I also think that Poland could use a slightly stronger vassal. Btw, central/eastern Europe was not hit as hard as the rest of Europe by the Balck Death.

Galicia (Halicz/Lwow) only became part of hungary because they shared a HoS. Even though Louis considered it part of Hungary, it never really was, and in any case it was "definitively" assigned to Poland in 1382.

Red Ruthenia was an area of constant fights and shared influance between Poles, Liths and Hungarians, Louis installed Hungarian governors and garnissons all across Red Ruthenia in 1379, he did it b/c he was afraid that Polish Lords will not accept his daughter on Polish throne and it was a sort of blackmail (it made him even more unpopular though but it was definitely anoteher valid reason for accepting Hedwige/Jadwiga on Polish throne). I definitely think it should be Hungarian property now, it's another good prompt for Polish player to follow the historical path and install Jadwiga, it is a good CB, bragaining chip, etc.

So, now to what I came online to say:
While the forums were down, and I was procrastinating from study, I started mucking about with the map again. I've redrawn Bohemia, Saxony and Austria properly this time, and added a few provinces on the east of the caspian so that Timur and Toqtamish Khan can have some fun.

I also *SHOCKHORRORGASP* removed Montferrat. I know i know they had a few important marriages but frankly so did half of the minor states in europe, and they are really really small.

it would be cool if Bohemia owned Moravia not Austria (I mean only changing the prov name )

btw, if we don't have separate Moravia, Opava etc. that we definitely should not have separate M-F

 

[cccino]

I think it does, I mean Mazovia definitely deserves a second province. It was quite a powerful duchy at that time, able to defend against Liths and TO, it was also quite wealthy and big, I also think that Poland could use a slightly stronger vassal. Btw, central/eastern Europe was not hit as hard as the rest of Europe by the Balck Death.

Fine.

Red Ruthenia was an area of constant fights and shared influance between Poles, Liths and Hungarians, Louis installed Hungarian governors and garnissons all across Red Ruthenia in 1379, he did it b/c he was afraid that Polish Lords will not accept his daughter on Polish throne and it was a sort of blackmail (it made him even more unpopular though but it was definitely anoteher valid reason for accepting Hedwige/Jadwiga on Polish throne). I definitely think it should be Hungarian property now, it's another good prompt for Polish player to follow the historical path and install Jadwiga, it is a good CB, bragaining chip, etc.

That's nice.

The 1911 Encyclopedia says very clearly that Galicia (Halicz and Lvov) became definitively part of Poland in 1382.

Unless you can conclusively disprove that date, I don't want to hear it anymore. Giving Galicia to Hungary will not make players any more likely to "follow the historical path"; they'll do whatever the hell they want, regardless.

it would be cool if Bohemia owned Moravia not Austria (I mean only changing the prov name )

Errr, I did say I redrew/renamed Austria and Bohemia, didn't I? I can't magically make the map appear on your screen, particularly when you want to change something every 5 minutes.

 

[elvain]

it would be cool if Bohemia owned Moravia not Austria (I mean only changing the prov name )

I would agree to this....

also a minor detail: Cheb should be more developed than Plzen

 

[Longinus]

Fine.

cool, you' my hero, as usual

That's nice.

The 1911 Encyclopedia says very clearly that Galicia (Halicz and Lvov) became definitively part of Poland in 1382.

Unless you can conclusively disprove that date, I don't want to hear it anymore. Giving Galicia to Hungary will not make players any more likely to "follow the historical path"; they'll do whatever the hell they want, regardless.

3c, mate, while I do recognise the wisdom of the mighty 1911 Encyclopedia, I do think it is wrong regarding Halicz and Lvov, what is called Red Ruthania here in Poland.

I am sorry I can't provide you with any on-line Engliah resources but I can scan some pages from my books which are in Polish

it was definitely Hungarian since 1379 untill 1386-7 when Queen Jadwiga reclaimed it.

here's the map showing the situation in the region, it dates on 1385, I assure you the map looked the same in 1383, as you can see "Ruś Halicka" has light brown, the descriptions says. "Ruś Halicka pod panowaniem węgierskim" = "Halicz Ruthenia under hungarian overlordship."

btw, if I will play Poland, I will definitely try to crown Jadwiga, just for the sake of getting back Ruthenia from Hungary (however, it will depend on Hungary if the deal will be upheld heh)

 

[unmerged(18481)]

The 1911 Encyclopedia says very clearly that Galicia (Halicz and Lvov) became definitively part of Poland in 1382.

Unless you can conclusively disprove that date, I don't want to hear it anymore. Giving Galicia to Hungary will not make players any more likely to "follow the historical path"; they'll do whatever the hell they want, regardless.

Messér, forgive me for chiming in, but Long is right.

Halics and Lodomeria were separated from Poland in 1374, during the joint Diet of Poland and Hungary, held in Kassa (this is the Diet where the female inheritance was confirmed). The "Kingdom of Halicz and Lodomeria" (in theory kingdom since 1253, confirmed by the Pope all right) was made an "auxiliary part" of Hungary, which means it was a royal fief, but subject to its own laws, etc (like Croatia or Transylvania): a vassal state. The territory was ruled by Voivodes, first of whom was Prince Ladislav of Oppeln, and the second (ruling until 82) was ónódi Péter Czudar, an influental courtier of Louis, an important landholder in the northern part of the country. The government of Halics was generally very similar to that of Croatia and Transylvania, it had a royal official rulng it, had an own Diet (though it was never convoked, AFAIK); such vassal states were called "attached parts" of Hungary.

In 1382, Voivode Péter Czudar began to sell the royal castles to the Poles and the Liths. Queen Mary obviously wasn't very happy about this, she got Czudar arrested, and he was replaced by a certain János Kaplay (a scholar), who firmly resisted the repeated Lith offers of bribery, and kept his country loyal to Queen Mary. He was appointed Chancellor in 84, the Voivode became a certain Imre Bebek: he, too, was loyal to Mary and kept his countries under Hungarian suzeranity. What more, he was so loyal that he waged a private war against the Poles and the Liths, and since Mary wanted to preserve peace, he was swiftly called back and made chancellor -- and János Kaplay was made Voivode once again in 86. The territory was still under the Voivode's control.

The Poles invaded Halics and Lodomeria in 1387, right after Sigismund was elected King of H -- you see, the Poles could have lived with Halics attached to Hungary, but they were alarmed by the possibility of Halics attached to the Luxembourger fiefs. The anti-Luxemburger Hungarian officers, originally appointed by Louis, swiftly bowed before Hedwig (who was the daughter of the King they were loyal to), and even though Kaplay resisted along with the city itself, it made no difference. His name and office disappear from the documents in 87, so it's assumed he gave up Halics and returned to Hungary proper by then. Halics was never officially ceded to Poland.

All in all, Halics and Lodomeria was a Hungarian vassal state in 1383. CCC, I don't ask you to make it a separate realm (even though that would be the most realistic solution... ... but then, you know my views about Transylvania, so...), and I understand if you decide to leave out this intermezzo of the dissolution of the Hungarian-Polish Union... but then again, it wasn't a part of Poland.

 

[cccino]

For the record, the reason I'm pissed off is not because I disagree with anyone, but because it's been left to the last minute.

All in all, Halics and Lodomeria was a Hungarian vassal state in 1383. CCC, I don't ask you to make it a separate realm (even though that would be the most realistic solution... ... but then, you know my views about Transylvania, so...), and I understand if you decide to leave out this intermezzo of the dissolution of the Hungarian-Polish Union... but then again, it wasn't a part of Poland.

No, I don't know your views about transylvania. Enlighten me.

 

[cccino]

There are many states in this game that have never existed in EU2, and hence do not have forum shields. What do you guys think we should use to enliven the stats? EGUFSM style shields? Disadvantage that players can't change their forum avatar to match, but then for many states they can't anyway... Can someone please find and link me to as many shields (GUFSM, EGUFSM, Forum, whatever) as possible? I mean a text file list of actual image addresses; I certainly think I've done enough to not have to go chasing down 100-odd shields - it'll take an hour or two just to copy and paste from a list

 

[Longinus]

For the record, the reason I'm pissed off is not because I disagree with anyone, but because it's been left to the last minute.

No, I don't know your views about transylvania. Enlighten me.

pissed off? chill out mate, there is hardly any reason to be pissed off over anything

There are many states in this game that have never existed in EU2, and hence do not have forum shields. What do you guys think we should use to enliven the stats? EGUFSM style shields? Disadvantage that players can't change their forum avatar to match, but then for many states they can't anyway... Can someone please find and link me to as many shields (GUFSM, EGUFSM, Forum, whatever) as possible? I mean a text file list of actual image addresses; I certainly think I've done enough to not have to go chasing down 100-odd shields - it'll take an hour or two just to copy and paste from a list

I say,,, let Ladislav do the searching and copy&pasting

actually, it came to me just a sec ago, perhaps we could take all gifs from CK and host them somewhere? there are plenty of CoAs there

 

[Longinus]

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162614

here they are, we now just need to ask Icarus or some other guy nicely for hosting them

not good, they are bitmaps, and they are too big, too much work in converthing them all to jpgs and resizing them I guess