EUM Map Proposal and Rules - Discussion

[Mettermrck]

actually, its a horrible mistake.
EDIT: I believe it's marked as 1382 b/c there were constant fights in the region, there was no border set in stone so to speak. the area was rather rural.

So you posted a map with a horrible mistake, eh?

Online it says Lithuania ceded Samogitia to the TO in 1382, 1398, and 1404. " In 1382 Jogaila ceded Samogitian territory up to the Dubysa river , while in 1398 and 1404 Vytautas gave away Samogitia as far as the Nevezis river." I agree it was fought over, but based on your map, it looks the TO controlled it at the time. So I wouldn't mind having Samogitia, Lad and ccc.

 

[Longinus]

So you posted a map full of horrible mistakes, eh?

Online it says Lithuania ceded Samogitia to the TO in 1382, 1398, and 1404. I agree it was fought over, but based on your map, it looks the TO controlled it at the time. So I wouldn't having Samogitia, Lad and ccc.

"In 1382 Jogaila ceded Samogitian territory up to the Dubysa river , while in 1398 and 1404 Vytautas gave away Samogitia as far as the Nevezis river."

http://www.kresy.co.uk/zmudz.html - we just need to find these rivers hehe.

anyway, from what I know the entire region was in the state of constant warfare, Lithuanian peastans uprisings against TO etc. it was giving TO more problems than it was worth it hehe. it was however strategis region as it was connecting TO with their allies Swordbrothers from Livonia.

perhaps we could give it to TO and assign value 0 to it for now? later, if both sides would agree to peace, the province would be given value 2 back.

EDIT: "On 31 October, 1382 on the island in the mouth of the Dubysa River three treaties were concluded with the German Order on behalf of Jogaila and Skirgaila. Under one of the treaties the Lithuanian dukes agreed to be christened; according to the second treaty they plecloed their help to the Order in its struggle with enemies. The third treaty gave the Order the Samogitian lands located between the two parts of the Order up to the Dubysa River. However, it seemed that already in 1382 Jogaila knew about the project concerning his invitation to the Polish throne and expected his future marriage him off to Hedwig, that's why he conducted an independent course of politics. Terminating relationship with Jogaila, the crusaders paid more attention to Vytautas and upon his christening they again demanded the Samogitians." http://samogitia.mch.mii.lt/ISTORIJA/istorija.en.htm

 

[Mettermrck]

perhaps we could give it to TO and assign value 0 to it for now? later, if both sides would agree to peace, the province would be given value 2 back.

Or make it value 0 for Lithuania. Either-or. Or give the TO access through this province until a peace settles the issue.

 

[cccino]

It is January '83. I'd be willing to say the TO and Lith are at war, with Samogitia controlled by TO.

At any rate, I'm probably re-merging TO and Liv., as per instructions, and giving TO +2 LM instead of +1. TO's stats would thus be 6/2/9/10/3; Lithuania's 4/0/7/10/4. I think TO would rather have guaranteed forces from the Livonian Brothers than the random chance offered by vassal support event.

 

[Longinus]

It is January '83. I'd be willing to say the TO and Lith are at war, with Samogitia controlled by TO.

At any rate, I'm probably re-merging TO and Liv., as per instructions, and giving TO +2 LM instead of +1. TO's stats would thus be 6/2/9/10/3; Lithuania's 4/0/7/10/4. I think TO would rather have guaranteed forces from the Livonian Brothers than the random chance offered by vassal support event.

actually not really, both orders were following their own agendas often (TO in Poland/Lithuania, LO in Lithuania/Russia), I think Mett did some reading regarding the topic.

LO can might as well get a "loyalty bonus" to the "alliance response table" (as I would call it, b/c this realtionship definitely was not vassalage)

anyway, I believe TO/LO should be separated.

 

[cccino]

Probably, but Lith would kick TO's arse otherwise This way they need to team up with Poland to win.

 

[Longinus]

Probably, but Lith would kick TO's arse otherwise This way they need to team up with Poland to win.

not if LO will respond to the call, BESIDES 3c. there is one evry importnat thing to remeber, diplomacy. TO is more likely to get help from Christian Europe against pagan Liths than vice versa :/

 

[cccino]

not if LO will respond to the call, BESIDES 3c. there is one evry importnat thing to remeber, diplomacy. TO is more likely to get help from Christian Europe against pagan Liths than vice versa :/

this is true

 

[Longinus]

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

btw, what do you think of adding Cillis and Niclos Garai in Hungary?

and now, sleeeep

 

[N Katsyev]

Yes... you're right: it would all be a bit artificial.
Maybe just that while the capital is captured, spring reinforcements cannot be raised?

Yes, but this again may just make it easier as you say to go forward for annexation/full occupation. Its tough, because during the Time of Troubles the Poles occupied Moskva for a time and it was the people of the northeastern regions themselves who rose up to throw them out. They had no loyalties per se or any desire to do anything but rid themselves of the Polish presence, and when that was accomplished didn't much know what to do. Perhaps this was something of an exception to the rule however.

 

[unmerged(945)]

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

btw, what do you think of adding Cillis and Niclos Garai in Hungary?

and now, sleeeep

Miklos Garai was Palatine of Hungary in 1383 I believe, and ruled the country together with Dowager Queen Elizabeth. Other than that the area named Miklos Garai on the map is allready in the game... Croatia As for the Cillis... *shrugs*

 

[unmerged(945)]

As per Icarus' suggestion, I've had a crack at reworking the old battle system for use here. I still really wanted to keep a few things, namely that tech modifiers should be relative but morale, absolute. Also, one thing I didn't like about the old system was that the more LM you had, the more dice you rolled and hence the less random the result became (statistically, more dice rolled, the closer the probability assumes a bell curve). So I figured to do two sets of rolls for each army, one for tech and one for morale; the set for tech being a single roll that is repeated for each LM. Lots of dice rolls! We should make you do the battles Icarus, you bastard , since I originally only thought to do 3 rolls per battle.

Well, my suggestion was an alternative where the game was kept much closer to the original. That means no wartime regen, no sieges, no spending limits etc. As far as number of dice rolled goes, automating the system you posted above would be extremely simple.

And isn't Tracid supposed to still be the battlemod?

 

[unmerged(945)]

About the capitals, I don't think the game really needs any more rules. As the game is now open to inscriptions it is time to put a freeze on the rules discussion soon, and a decision will have to be made about what is to be implemented. The same goes for the map and provinces.

 

[unmerged(18481)]

Miklos Garai was Palatine of Hungary in 1383 I believe, and ruled the country together with Dowager Queen Elizabeth. Other than that the area named Miklos Garai on the map is allready in the game... Croatia As for the Cillis... *shrugs*

Yes. The magnates are just trying to get on their feet again, their reign is in its infancy, the Garais are yet to become absolute rulers of the western parts, etc, etc. Hungary is still a rather centralized state at this time (comparable to England in all respects), Louis most certainly did a great job.

To comment on Long's question: I don't think it would be advisable. What more, I guess Long was joking .

 

[Longinus]

Yes. The magnates are just trying to get on their feet again, their reign is in its infancy, the Garais are yet to become absolute rulers of the western parts, etc, etc. Hungary is still a rather centralized state at this time (comparable to England in all respects), Louis most certainly did a great job.

To comment on Long's question: I don't think it would be advisable. What more, I guess Long was joking .

I was not jokeing about Cillis

 

[cccino]

About the capitals, I don't think the game really needs any more rules.

Well it's as much a clarification as anything. In the traditional game, armies are raised in the capital.

Here's my official take on the matter (official in that you need to object in order to get it).

When you go to war, you can place all of your army in your capital province. Ditto purchased LM. You can also place all of it in any province with a land connection (controlled, not just owned) to the capital. If your country is split (eg Ottoman Empire), you can place a portion of the army in a province not connected to the capital. That portion is relative to the size of the group of provinces. So assuming the OE has about half it's territory in Europe, it can place half its LM in, say, Macedonia or Albania, or it can place all of it in Brusa or any adjacent province.

As for the Cillis, I've left out many Imperial Counties, so it wouldn't be consistent to include them. The County is smaller than Styria (it's just the southern bit), ergo too small to have their own realm.

 

[Bagricula]

3c, I've noticed that the province Lorraine is listed with econ value 4 in the Duchy of Lorraine's stats, yet is a 3 on the econ map. Also, the Bar has not been included yet in Lorraine's stats or in the political map as belonging to Lorraine.

Small details all.

 

[Longinus]

Norway was ruled by the Noregian king Hakoon (VI?), son of the dead Swedish king Magnus Eriksson. Hakoon married Queen Margerethe of Denmark, daughter of Waldemar Atterdag and thus he brought Denmark into a union with Norway ruled from Copenhagen (which Sweden later would be volountarily incorporated into to get rid of Albrekt of Mecklenburg, the current Swedish Duke-King). I'd think the situation in Norway is kind of like the situation was in Sweden during the Kalmar Union, with powerful nobles who more often than not disagrees with the king. Perhaps a bit calmer since Norway was less powerful than Sweden following the Black Death in Norway

Perhaps Badawi could RP king Haakon since he's Norwegian, and Bz queen Margarethe? I don't know

he is dead, heh

F2. Hakon VI, King of Sweden (1362-63), King of Norway (1344-80), *VIII.1340, +11.9.1380; m.1363 Queen Margareta of Denmark (*1353 +1412)
G1. Olav II, King of Denmark (1376-87) and Norway (1381-87) as Olaf IV, last member of Folkunga family, *1370, +3.8.1387

it seems Olav II is King of Denamark and Norway atm, a very young king as well. I bet his mother is actually the one who pull the stings (as she always did as far as I know) neverthelss the actual HoS should be changed I think.

 

[Lord E]

he is dead, heh

F2. Hakon VI, King of Sweden (1362-63), King of Norway (1344-80), *VIII.1340, +11.9.1380; m.1363 Queen Margareta of Denmark (*1353 +1412)
G1. Olav II, King of Denmark (1376-87) and Norway (1381-87) as Olaf IV, last member of Folkunga family, *1370, +3.8.1387

it seems Olav II is King of Denamark and Norway atm, a very young king as well. I bet his mother is actually the one who pull the stings (as she always did as far as I know) neverthelss the actual HoS should be changed I think.

Yes, it is correct that it is Olav, but Olav II is the Norwegian saint king “Olav den hellige” the one that is credited by having made Norway Christian, and he died in the battle of Stiklestad in 1030

The correct number would be Olav IV Håkonsson so that should be the HoS, although his mother ruled and controlled everything…

 

[HJ Tulp]

Friesen should be either Fryslan or Friesland