EUIV - Development Diary - 14th of January 2020

EUIV - Development Diary - 14th of January 2020

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Johan

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this patch will be disgusting when topic comes to balance , if trade companies depends to super regions , it would be ok , but land connection is just a bad idea
superregion is a good solution.
 

aGamingMonkey

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Whilst I am all for soft capping I still think the states limit should be based on province count and not development. It was originally implemented as a way to promote playing tall and keep blobbing more limited to the late game. These changes make it only a general progression brake instead and at first draft don't sound like fun as it will either be ignored as inevitable malice or too low effect.

Look at administrative cap in stellar is being based on pop amount as well as amount of systems. It does nothing to promote playing tall and is largely ignored by the players.
 

Kayno

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That was not what you said in your first post. Your statement (which I replied to) was that Paradox are "effectively making the whole game play tall". The new limit will absolutely allow a non-tall playstyle without any problems. 3500 dev, which is achievable without any penalties according to what Groogy said, is not tall. And that is if you fully state everything and do not build courthouses.
They are also allowing countries in Asia and Africa to have trade companies, which will let them hold even more land without penalties and remove the absurd strategy of moving your capital to Europe in order to get TCs.

World conquest and the WC achievements are a different matter. You probably won't be able to avoid penalties from going over the limit when doing a world conquest, however:

1. I am truly not sure whether these penalties are harsher than the hard state cap and hard corruption penalty from holding too many territories in place right now
2. you absolutely do not have to full-state the whole world in order to do a world conquest. The starting development for the whole world is 17.587. Let's assume this will be increased to about 18.000 with all the new provinces in 1.30. Let us also, for simplicity's sake, assume that your cap is 3.500 by the end of the game, that you do not build any courthouses and that global dev is increased to 20.000 by the end of the game.
If you have 1.000 dev fully stated and the remaining 19.000 dev as territories, you will be at a total weighted development of 5750.
I.e.: after completing a world conquest, you exceed your limit by 64 % and thus gain 0,64 of the penalties. This is just some wobbly math made up on the fly, but a penalty of about two thirds of those values after doing the most extreme amount of conquest possible in the game does not seem excessive.
And I suppose this discounts the fact that afaik you can do all WC achievements while having all of America and Oceania held by colonial nations, which do not count towards the limit.

It is ok to dislike penalties towards expansion, but a little less hysteria (this is not directed towards you, YeP1337, specifically) wouldn't go amiss here.
Most wc´s i finished where Russia is formed, have a total development range from 23k to 25k development
 

Jesus was a communist

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Some have been doing this mandate of heaven, but then you miss out on the good changes to the game with the new patches.
Yes but it's a question of do the good changes outweigh the bad.
Before 1.30 even with the corruption modifier territories it was still worth it because in my opinion.
But with all the bad mechanics this 1.30 will introduce I don't think it will anymore.
I wait for release to decide whether to buy or not but I'm doubtful. Shame I was exited for the European rework:(
 

swagmeister

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This is like putting a band-aid on a broken leg. Sure, it's a very nice band-aid, and technically speaking, it's still better than no band-aid, but it does nothing whatsoever to treat the broken leg of 'Trade only flows in one direction'.
I'm going to disagree that trade flowing one way is in any way broken. Moving your home node doesn't come with the same restrictions as moving your capital. You also don't need to have a European capital to have a solid trade game. I was able to spawn global trade easily in coramandel in a Rajputana run.
 

Ixalmaris

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Why was the effect on trade power from blockades removed?
The British blockading French ports had a huge effect on trade and now it has none?
 

klingonadmiral

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For reference, how much dev is the entire world, typically?
Old world is 22-24k.

But keep in mind that the 17.5k assumes everything in your empire is fully stated. If you keep your crap areas unstated and have lots of TCs, you can easily hold all of the old world without reaching the cap.

If now us a duchy from the start of the game yuo can have 10 states and 10 territories with out any penalty wat so ever (that is easy enough to upgrade yuor gov rank to kindom), in future yuo will be able to have like what 6 somewhat decent state max and 0 territoty (and that is me being optimistic assuming on that Lis screnshot 200 = amount of dev yuo can have full stated). That is just not good, the base numbe of dev yuo can have without penalties should be much-much higher.
There are multiple ways to get around that, like:

  1. Delay upgrading your territories to states
  2. Try to go as closely to your GC as possible before taking a lot of land in a single war that will get you over the cap.
  3. Vassal feed
 

MiniaAr

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Portugal, England and Great Britain have uniquely higher marine forcelimits but we also listened to your feedback and added easy access to Marines for Netherlands, Venice & Castille. The rest have to take naval ideas or a policy to have access to it. Which you really want to already, if you are aiming to be a relevant naval power anyway.
Why no French marines without needing Naval ideas? French marines were an active part of the French military during the period, founded by Richelieu and took part in several wars including the Seven Years war under Montcalm.

These troupes constituted the principal military force of France capable of intervening in actions and holding garrisons in outre-mer (overseas) from 1690 to 1761. Independent companies of the navy and colonial regulars,[1] were under the authority of the French Minister of Marine, who was also responsible for the French navy, overseas trade, and French colonies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troupes_de_la_marine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnies_Franches_de_la_Marine
 

Konsum

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So going over your "Governing Capacity" is supposed to bring problems with administrating your country, right? Then why does it give not one, but TWO massive penalties to diplomacy? Stability cost and adminstrative efficiency are perfectly fine, but what is it about improve relations and AE? Even yearly corruption makes more sense than that. Governing Capacity is not even about conquering too much, just about being too big, it has nothing to do with diplomacy at all.
Base 100 development limit for duchies? Great, that means Austrian diplomacy will be crippled from the start of the game, because of their development. And they can't even upgrade their Government Rank from Duchy.
Please reconsider these modifiers, maybe replace them with something like monthly autonomy gain or tax/production efficiency penalties.
The rest of the DD looks nice, especially the Naval Combat fix and TC adjustments.
 

Johan

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Most wc´s i finished where Russia is formed, have a total development range from 23k to 25k development
Russia's age bonus is a +33% Governing Capacity, which is insanely good.

We calculate that a WC endgame on high end is 27-28k.

Where we calculate that a superpower should be able to handle about 7-8k development without penalties if they plan territories, trade companies, and build buildings..

If you go for a WC post those values, then you will have a bit more challenging time.

However, there are other mechanics that help with WC for those inclined, that we will talk about later.
 

holyvigil

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Very good post I love all of it.

But.... any more events for me? That's my favorite part of the game. I enjoy trying to catch them all.

On to community complaints:
So now the big block appears to be AE or money.

You guys really don't understand the dislike for corruption from everyone else. It was never that the mechanics were poor it's the goal that was hated. And this change is the same goal: Punishing expansion. I don't know if this will sate people as changes like this have been proposed in the past and all of them get shot down due to not liking the goal not the mechanics behind it.
 

TheDungen

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That would allow Mamluks to have Trade Companies in Arabia.
Then make it so that you can't have trade companies in your own culture group rather than religious group.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Portugal, England and Great Britain have uniquely higher marine forcelimits but we also listened to your feedback and added easy access to Marines for Netherlands, Venice & Castille. The rest have to take naval ideas or a policy to have access to it. Which you really want to already, if you are aiming to be a relevant naval power anyway.
Portugal and England didn't particularly use higher proportions of their total manpower for marines than the other nations mentioned though, The highest is by a clear winner Venice, but even with differentiation in game direction I can't see Castile (Spain), Portugal, Netherlands or Britain really utilising marines to the same extent as the Venetians did. Its probably also worth pointing out Aragon would very likely have been a nation who would clearly have developed a significant marine corps should they not have unified under the Iberian crown. Other nations that possibly need some thought are Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Genoa and formable nations such as Scandinavia, USA and Italy.

Taking the Napoleonic wars for example, the peak troop numbers for marines serving was 31,400, while the British Army total consisted of around 250,000. I'm not quite sure if the total number includes the 31,000 marines or not, I'd suspect not as marines typically fell under the navy board. This gives you a percentage of around 12.5%-15% depending on the count for total number of marines, including those attached to ships.

Spain as far as I can tell had a total military during the Napoleonic period of about 220,000, of which 12500 were marines, leaving them with at about 5.5% their total military.

Meanwhile Venice in the 1790s were maintaining a peacetime military of just under 24000, of which included a force of 5000 marines, leaving them with a total of 20% of their enlisted manpower, There was also a marine reserve pool of 9000 marines who would be called to war quickly leaving a total of 33,000 professional troops increasing the percentage of enlisted manpower to a little shy of 40% being marines.

Portugal seems a bit more ambiguous but during the Napoleonic period I frequently see the number of 3 battalions being mentioned, while the Portuguese army was around 35,000. Assuming they are roughly 800-1000 men, that leaves the Portuguese at around 8-10% of their fighting men.

I've struggled to find more direct numbers than this, Dutch military during the Napoleonic period (as the Batavian republic) points to being 35,000 men strong at its peak, with no specialised marine corps but some of whom served as unofficial marines as part of the Batavian navy. There's also a record of 1500 Dutch marines landing in the famous Medway raid but no reference to how many "marines" in total.

Its probably also worth mentioning that France kept a significant naval marine corps but the numbers would be heavily skewed out of proportion for the Napoleonic period due to the sheer weight of numbers in Napoleon's land based forces so I've not included them for now.

Simply put on force percentage example numbers during the Napoleonic period you see:
  • Venice - 20-40%
  • Britain - 12.5-15%
  • Portugal - 8-10%
  • Spain - 5-6%
  • Netherlands (Guesstimate around 10%)

I'd also be interested in numbers being more relevant at the heights of naval projection for each nation, so the 16-17th century Portugal and 17th century Netherlands and Spain. Its also curious that a lot of these marine units of the time had further specialisation into artillery warfare, assumedly because it was so vital to provide artillery cover to opposed landings.

If my numbers are wrong please correct me.
 
Last edited:

Muelleri

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Super region is good idea because russia can make large siberia to trade company. It gives reason to colonize siberia for russia.
N if devs adjust super region area like africa or tartary then it will be more make sense.
 

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Very meaty DD, that brings a lot to the table and after the holidays we were all starved for some juicy morsels of EU4 innovation.

Glad to see players dicussing the new concepts and asking so many questions (some very justified) and the devs in turn picking up on their ideas. I'm loving all the brainstorming and discussion in this thread! This is a great chance for EU4 and I hope everybody stays civil, openminded and constructive.

Random thoughts:
  • Division by superregion could be the way to go for TC land. Not entirely convinced on religion though - culture could indeed be a better indicator
  • Increased open sea attrition is a good (and realistic) addition! Maybe some of this could be offset by dip-tech in the late game - while not entirely historical, this could provide some feeling of progression and advancement inside the game's time frame
  • More government reforms are great and those showcased offer a great variety of play styles! I especially love monastic breweries, since they are so unique
  • Some people questioned the additional received shock damage on marines - while I personally don't mind it that much, maybe the offset could be in their movement speed on land? Quick at sea, slow at land. If they are merged into a regular army, the could slow the whole column, thus incentivising the player to treat them uniquely.
  • Having an administration pool that get's tapped into by various forms or provinces is a fantastic idea! You can play around with it, try different approaches to expansion, reform your country when the need arises... Could this also be influenced by percentrage of crown land and provinces held by estates? (I love when mechanics interconnect)
Keep it up! You're tying a lot of lose ends and flesh out previously introduced mechanics and that is a great thing!