• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Plague109

Sergeant
79 Badges
Apr 17, 2016
99
120
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Thinking about this a bit more, I think ethos axis and opposing traits should be dichotomies, not just two related philosophies.

So instead of "Eugenic vs Life-Loving", we'd have "Transhumanist vs Naturalist" or something more species-neutral; one wants to change their physical body to some sort of more ideal form, the other wants to leave it as it is. Extreme transhumanists would be like Nazis, moderates would be like a race of scientists trying to improve themselves. Extreme naturalists would be puritan zealots, moderates would be ecologists.

However you could argue this is already represented by materialist/spiritual already with their access to augmentation and psychic powers, respectively.

An interesting point is brought up by calling them "transhumanist" as it is very similar to the transcendence goal already in the game (or at least I think the developers mentioned it). Its possible that a life-loving, purist, or naturalist empire may see a transcendence to a higher form disgusting as it would profoundly alter their species. This would cause some disconnect between the empire the player has been playing for hours and the ultimate fate of that empire.
 

EddieTheLion

Sergeant
16 Badges
Sep 21, 2015
68
192
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
Thinking about this a bit more, I think ethos axis and opposing traits should be dichotomies, not just two related philosophies.

So instead of "Eugenic vs Life-Loving", we'd have "Transhumanist vs Naturalist" or something more species-neutral; one wants to change their physical body to some sort of more ideal form, the other wants to leave it as it is. Extreme transhumanists would be like Nazis, moderates would be like a race of scientists trying to improve themselves. Extreme naturalists would be puritan zealots, moderates would be ecologists.

However you could argue this is already represented by materialist/spiritual already with their access to augmentation and psychic powers, respectively.

Nazis don't really have anything to do with transhumanism?

People keep thinking of transhumanism as either some sort of attempt to engineer some cyber-aryan master race of blonde haired blue eyed supermen, or turning into a hivemind. I think they get caught up thinking of there identity as a human rather than as a person. And I mean, there are people who think like that, but it can also be freedom- an eternal liberation of the individual from the constraints and murderous oppression of nature.

Really this should depend on other ethos- collectivist for the first kinds and individualist for the latter. I think materialist representing transhumanism works fine for now.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

ParagonExile

Colonel
56 Badges
Apr 6, 2015
832
4.416
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Nazis don't really have anything to do with transhumanism?

People keep thinking of transhumanism as either some sort of attempt to engineer some cyber-aryan master race of blonde haired blue eyed supermen, or turning into a hivemind. I think they get caught up thinking of there identity as a human rather than as a person. And I mean, there are people who think like that, but it can also be freedom- an eternal liberation of the individual from the constraints and murderous oppression of nature.

Really this should depend on other ethos- collectivist for the first kinds and individualist for the latter. I think materialist representing transhumanism works fine for now.

I'm a transhumanist myself, to the extent I'd want my mind transferred to a machine. My use of the term "transhumanist" in this context is rather loose, and I fully agree with you.

The Nazis were not explicitly transhumanists, but they did aggressively experiment on minorites, prisoners and the like to promote the creation of a master race. They were wrong and stupid of course, and used incorrect science, but they were ultimately trying to "strengthen" the human race. Oh Jesus it feels so wrong even writing that.

However, transhumanists *do* want a form of eugenics and still want to crate a master race, they just don't rely on extremely inhumane methods to do so. They promote genetic engineering, augmentation and generally follow the ideal that teleological design is better than design by natural selection or random chance. They also don't want to murder everyone who isn't like them.

I agree materialism works well for representing transhumanism, considering that transhumanists must on some level believe in naturalism.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

LordPavel

Major
78 Badges
Jan 5, 2015
664
424
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
"Transhumanist vs Naturalist"
Very more better than ''Eugenic vs Lifeloving'' ! I will keep and hope you will too. :)

As a biologist-to-be, I'd argue that a eugenic approach based on biology would definitely value diversity.
Heu ...
You should learn about history of livestock and agriculture. Before we have soooooo many diversity. And today, after selection, we have faaaaar less diversity. And with OGM, Mosanto make 5-10 species of corn and sell this everywhere.
If you ask in europe for find the old vegetable, you can find in few areas, the vegetal are very weird (and often not good; maybe it is for that we stop to use them :p) and different. We lost soooooooooo much diversity.
So, eugenic = diversity ... the history say you are wrong.

Well, any sane eugenicist (i.e. not the ones that have existed historically) would focus only on a small number of genes that clearly have advantages and which don't relate to immunity, and would seek as much diversity as possible in traits that do not have advantages.
If one day someone can sell one gene and this gene is clearly superior, lot of people will take this gene and we will lost the diversity. Why people should take the gene A with 40% of improve if you can take the gene B with 80% of improve ? For diversity ? Pff ! Other people can have this diversity, I take the best. And everybody take B. We will have only B.
And why we will not change the immunity ? If we find a gene for be strong against 99% of disease and another against 80%, everybody will want the 99% and one day we could have the 1% disease.
The history say you are wrong. :)

That's because eugenics has a negative connotation, but genetic modification, cloning, gene therapy, genetic engineering, etc are all methods of new eugenics.
Dont talk at the future. We already have an eugenic action in the western society. Around 90% of fetus with trisomie 21 will not born in my country.

---------------------

There one point we talk together, but we are not clear :
The transhumanist can try to select DNA for improve the race. But, they will make one race or many ?
If today, we can change DNA, everybody will take all improvement (a little more smart, a little more strong, a little more disease ressistance) and we will have ''one race'' better than the natural one. So everybody can do everything, just we are better everywhere a little (Gattaca).

Or we will make children with a goal ? This one will be focus on disease and a little on smart = good doctor. This one on strong for do a hard work. This one only on smart area for become a reseach. Adapt the skin or the stommach for a specific area on a planet. And we will have a kind of caste society and a greatter variety than today.

And the naturalist will try to keep everybody/race, or will try to focus on one (maybe not better, but ''mine'' and natural) ?
 

deezee

Captain
48 Badges
Oct 2, 2010
493
428
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Thinking about this a bit more, I think ethos axis and opposing traits should be dichotomies, not just two related philosophies.

So instead of "Eugenic vs Life-Loving", we'd have "Transhumanist vs Naturalist" or something more species-neutral; one wants to change their physical body to some sort of more ideal form, the other wants to leave it as it is. Extreme transhumanists would be like Nazis, moderates would be like a race of scientists trying to improve themselves. Extreme naturalists would be puritan zealots, moderates would be ecologists.

However you could argue this is already represented by materialist/spiritual already with their access to augmentation and psychic powers, respectively.

I think the issue is that Transhumast vs Naturalist, described that way, overlaps heavily with spiritualist vs materialist. This is especially true if you go by the in-game descriptions of the ethos, in which materialist is described specifically as rejecting the idea that there is something fundamentally special about intelligent life (e.g. the soul), which is the main grounds for opposition to transhumanism.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Cruxador

Colonel
93 Badges
Jul 27, 2008
1.154
1.970
Regarding the ethos differences, y'all might be interested to look up Free Cities, which has options to specialize in human modification or in purity, among other things. Trigger warning: it's mostly about sexual slavery and ancapism.

No, eugenics is selective breeding and sterilisation. Genetic engineering is to through (real) science alter the genetic material at fundamental levels.
No, those are methods of eugenics. Eugenics is the process of willfully changing a race to match an ideal.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Eugenics in a universe where widespread genetic engineering is available is rather pointless

Pointless?!

That is exactly what Eugenics is about: perfecting the human gene.

Genetic Engineering is the penultimate tool of Eugenicism.
 

Mennayr

Corporal
120 Badges
Oct 22, 2009
29
77
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Majesty 2 Collection
I would think something like Collectivist/Xenophobe/Materialist could cover a eugenics ethos, and something like Spiritual/Pacifist/Xenophile could work well for "life-loving".
 

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India