EU5 should be a naval-focused game

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Gyrvendal

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Hi fellow forumites!
I think by now most of you would agree that EU4 has reached the end of it's life cycle, and it's time to think about the next installment. EU5 will obviously not have the trillion little features that were added to EU4 over many DLCs, which is IMO rather a good thing. But on the other hand, it might feel quite "empty" without them initially like CK3.
One way to make EU5 feel like a fresh and interesting game would be to focus a lot resources into making the naval/trade game feel right. This is one of the areas in EU4 that is pretty much the same as it was at release, so it's probably hard to change in an already-released game. I don't have to tell you how important naval dominance was in this period of history, from the big struggles with the Ottomans in the Mediterranean to the fight for colonies and far-east trade worldwide.
I think HOI4 should be the main inspiration for a future naval game in EU4. While the Hoi4 system still inevitably has doomstacks, it still has a good place for fast raiders vs escort match ups, which should be most of the action in the EU period as well. It is also a relatively low micro system, especially if you have fewer ship types and no ship designer. You can just assign fleets a mission and a few areas and they will patrol/convoy raid/hunt enemy fleets as needed.
What do you think?
 
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namewhichisnottakenyet

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One somewhat niche thing I'd like to see about the naval game is having vassals respect military stances for ships, too.
I was playing as Rûm a while back. After forming the nation I wasn't all that strong yet and had incurred the wrath of a good portion of southeastern Europe. In the ensuing war I had a difficult fight fighting in the Balkans, stalemating my enemies at best while burning piles of manpower. So I made the decisions to have my enemies take occupy my european holdings, retreat back into Anatolia, bait my enemies to cross the Bosphorus, fight them there and then stackwipe them by cutting off their retreat path with my navy.

That didn't work because one of my vassals decided that it's a great idea to send a single boat to guard the strait and prevent my enemies from crossing, and I couldn't do a single thing about it.

I'd like a fix for that in EU5, please.
 
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Gyrvendal

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I can count the amount of important naval battles with my fingers.
I'll ignore the quip because there was wayyy more than 10 important naval battles. But I agree that big naval battles should NOT be the focus. Instead constant naval engagements between raiders and traders/escorts is what the game should try to model. In a lot of ways, it's similar to submarine warfare in ww2, which is why I suggested Hoi4 as a model.
Controlling the seas was incredibly important for many nations, which invested a lot in their navies. A lot of colonization, especially early on, was motivated by the need to have bases to project those ships abroad. Trade income is the largest source of income in EU4 beyond the early game, which I think accurately represents the period. However, was is not modelled well at all is the crucial need for navies to maintain this trade income.
 
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JaxElite

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I think by now most of you would agree that EU4 has reached the end of it's life cycle, and it's time to think about the next installment.
Way to go by assuming that the forums most controversive topic ever is someting people actually agree on.

But back on topic:
The naval game in eu4 is lacking yes, but mostly because there is nothing to represent properly. Army reinforcements is boring as well. Colonisation is weird.

It all comes back to modelling the movement of goods and people poorly. Without a proper system simulating demand and movement of trade goods as well as a system that actually manages supply of people and their movement, be it armies or colonists, there is little of value to be added to the systems that work with that, for exampke navies.
 
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3ishop

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I thin kwe will have to wait and see how they handle it in Victoria. I think that's a good model. But there is still an issue of how to make the naval game in EU have more depth and be fun. The HoI system never seemed that interesting to me or that fitting for a lot of EU type naval use.
 
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Mordred Viking

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I really like the way that Light Ships are so vital to trade interests (and the ways you can counter by sinking their lights / privateering) - would love to see this expanded on in EU5.

I agree though, that naval engagements in this period we were about constant harassment than decisive battles. Naval control is more of an economic weapon than a military one.
 
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Sete

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Wat

Lepanto had macrohistorical consequence and I bet others could point similar battles.
The Battle of Diu is considered as one of the most important battles in history. It marked the beginning of Western European dominance in the Indian Ocean. The author William Weir in his book 50 Battles That Changed the World, ranks this battle as the 6th most important in history.
When the 15th century began, Islam seemed about ready to dominate the world. That prospect sank in the Indian Ocean off Diu." The historian Rainer Daehnhardt says that this battle is compared only to the Battles of Lepanto and Trafalgar in terms of importance and legacy.
 

bokorthedust

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I can count the amount of important naval battles with my fingers.

I'll ignore the quip because there was wayyy more than 10 important naval battles.

Wat

Lepanto had macrohistorical consequence and I bet others could point similar battles.
Not to be nitpicky here guys, but no matter how many important naval battles you list from the era, he is technically right, most people can count up to a quite high number using their fingers ;)
 
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Vohen

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It all comes back to modelling the movement of goods and people poorly. Without a proper system simulating demand and movement of trade goods as well as a system that actually manages supply of people and their movement, be it armies or colonists, there is little of value to be added to the systems that work with that, for exampke navies.
Well put, here's hoping EU5 models these interactions.

I thin kwe will have to wait and see how they handle it in Victoria. I think that's a good model. But there is still an issue of how to make the naval game in EU have more depth and be fun. The HoI system never seemed that interesting to me or that fitting for a lot of EU type naval use.
We'll have to wait and see, but the way Vic3's markets seem to work, it really does have a great potential for an EU game as well.
I suppose the biggest difference would be where, in EU, you'd be trying to open markets to get access to cheaper foreign goods for your population (e.g. spices and tea), while in Vic, with the industrial revolution, there's another layer on top of that where you're also trying to open their market to sell your industrialized goods, but the principle of market access and of course supply and demand are the same.
I suppose the biggest difference mechanically would be that, instead of the focus being a capitalist class profiting off selling their goods, it'd be a merchant class profiting off transporting those goods.

And as far as ships go, I think it'd be good to give them all a role to play in trade.
Like transports being cargo ships for goods, and heavies being able to project power and forcefully open markets (also including the light ships current role in protecting trade).
The same could even be applied to supply in territories not connected to your capital, perhaps.
These would already make the naval game very interesting, having a stronger fleet would be essential for any trade power, as control of the seas could be indeed a decisive factor to keep your economy going and denying the same to your opponent.
 
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Riukus

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Well PDX and naval oriented game is big joke. I actually laught then read about HOI in OP post. Making empty roach DD as part of meta is definitely good part of naval game. And actually using light guns on kinda CA is good balance too. I read somewhere on forum what ship like that in reality must be around 300 meters long.
 
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Not to be nitpicky here guys, but no matter how many important naval battles you list from the era, he is technically right, most people can count up to a quite high number using their fingers ;)
I could count to 59049 with my fingers
in fact
 

Llama_Guy

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Just count in binary (finger up =1, down = 0) and you can get to 2^10 no problem.
 
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EarlKonrad

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Just count in binary (finger up =1, down = 0) and you can get to 2^10 no problem.

Can Humans even live long enough to count like that?