EU5: A focus on Things outside of Europe

[Denkt]

Using Chinese stealth technology is a bad example, because most of it was straight-up stolen from the Americans via corporate espionage. The PRC's acquisition of stealth jets was not due to its large population, for example, resulting in more skilled engineers, but a result of Chinese spies stealing American F-22 and F35 fighter tech.

Atleast they could build one which non of the European countries have been able to do yet other than being allowed in the F-35 program but US at that Point have already had an even more advanced stealth fighter the F22.

It tell quite alot how far behind European countries have fallen in terms of military technology, they simply can't keep up in terms of cost and can't afford stuff like F22. China atleast have reached and will eventually surpass US economy output by a significant margin and like US can concentrate wealth on very expensive research Projects, something the smaller and poorer European countries have generally been unable to do.

So large population meaning technological backwardness don't make too much sense.

 

[Father of Nations]

Using Chinese stealth technology is a bad example, because most of it was straight-up stolen from the Americans via corporate espionage.

Not using stolen technology is an even worse example because that’s how technological advance in human history works: x invents, y copies and improves (= invention). America’s rising as world‘s technological, economic and military superpower right after the post WWII brain drain from Germany is not a coincidence.

We should be looking for Terra Universalis.

A lot has happened to Europa Universalis games with every game focusing more and more on things outside Europe as well with in many ways Eu4s most important nation, Ottomans, being on the periphery and not the center of Europe.
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And its exactly that last reason why I personally think a title change could help. Differentiate it from previous Eurocentric gameplay and extend it to the entire World. Terra.

Remove the Eurocentric effects of the game. Add unique and more interesting history to the rest of the world. Institutions or ages for example are very Eurocentric, while more Eastern ideas aren't included. What about the Eastern ideals of Confucius and meritocracy vs the European ideals of Feudalism and the rennaissance.

EU is not in the right timeframe to think of a globalist Terra Universalis. We could have that with the cold war or our current timeframe, but not with an Age that was dominated by very expansionist European powers. I‘d love to see EU5 going in this regard even more into detail, while not neglecting, but also not shifting its focus to other regions and cultures.

 

[Denkt]

US was already more advanced than Germany Before ww2 in many ways, especially in industrial production.

 

[Lightwell]

EU is not in the right timeframe to think of a globalist Terra Universalis. We could have that with the cold war or our current timeframe, but not with an Age that was dominated by very expansionist European powers.

The started in the late 18th century and really only lasted until the early-mid 20th. This game starts way before then.

I‘d love to see EU5 going in this regard even more into detail, while not neglecting, but also not shifting its focus to other regions and cultures.

Honestly, I don't see why the focus needs to be on Europe for this. The era was very colorful in its own right, and sacrificing that so we can pretend Germany was massive and that the Prussian military was invincible just means doing the same thing just about every game does, for no historically-valid reason, with no real gain for anyone except people who only play games to LARP as German army commanders, and at the cost of the time and effort that could be put into fleshing out the world and making certain actions have consequences.

 

[Denkt]

The started in the late 18th century and really only lasted until the early-mid 20th. This game starts way before then.

Yes that is very much correct and Assuming that a few European countries was already in mid 15th Century determined to dominate the World is incorrect as alot of things could happen. Like Portugal was crippled just by being defeated in a single battle against Morocco which had big negative consequences for the Portuguese Empire which also allowed others like the English to move in. Alot of stuff could have happened in the timeframe and nothing was really certain.

 

[Father of Nations]

The started in the late 18th century and really only lasted until the early-mid 20th. This game starts way before then.

Yes, it literally starts with the Age of Exploration, so with the scouting of territories that are to be conquered or otherwise subjugated.

Honestly, I don't see why the focus needs to be on Europe for this. The era was very colorful in its own right, and sacrificing that so we can pretend Germany was massive and that the Prussian military was invincible just means doing the same thing just about every game does, for no historically-valid reason, with no real gain for anyone except people who only play games to LARP as German army commanders, and at the cost of the time and effort that could be put into fleshing out the world and making certain actions have consequences.

You can play Sengoku if you prefer larping as Japanese, I prefer playing HRE tags to engage in HRE matters or New Worlders to fend off colonisation.

 

[Lightwell]

Yes, it literally starts with the Age of Exploration, so with the scouting of territories that are to be conquered or otherwise subjugated.

And? European conquest of the New World is one thing, but that has no effect on the vast majority of the nations in the game. Even in real life, they weren't that important for their empires. It was conquest of the Old World that was important, and that didn't really begin until the late 1700s.

Discovering the existence of a nation you'd later conquer (or, in most cases, influence) isn't the beginning of an age of dominance. It begins when you actually begin the conquests.
Also, your map is off. Ethiopia was never colonized, and it's extremely difficult to tell blue from light blue, but India wasn't conquered by Europe. They were conquered by nations European companies had immense influence with. Same deal with Nigeria.

You can play Sengoku if you prefer larping as Japanese, I prefer playing HRE tags to engage in HRE matters or New Worlders to fend off colonisation.

Did you miss the point? I'm saying that placing the emphasis on Europe just results in this game doing the exact same thing as every other history game, magnifying the role and the power of European nations beyond anything believable, and shrinking the rest of the world so the whole thing can have less depth than a realistic take on the time period would. Again, you will honestly see more trade value in European nodes without Europeans contacting the East, than trade in the Eastern world itself.

Entire regions of the world are effectively cut out because someone decided that literally swelling Europe beyond its proper size and moving the Americas around would be better than just letting history play out as a series of conditionals.

 

[Father of Nations]

and shrinking the rest of the world so the whole thing can have less depth than a realistic take on the time period would

If this means less memes like the Chinese or Japanese HRE light, and more long overdue depth for HRE, then I‘m all for it. A game addressing multipolar globalism of the modern world would be definitely nice though, especially if it’s Vic3.

 

[Lightwell]

If this means less memes like the Chinese or Japanese HRE light, and more long overdue depth for HRE, then I‘m all for it.

"Long Overdue". The HRE has gotten far more attention than a single union deserves. You're literally talking about a space that isn't even the full size of Ethiopia, but which has countless tags and interactions. China's tendency to break apart and see massive civil wars as an immediate consequence has far more significance than the question of whether or not Austria manages to gain direct control over Germany.

A game addressing multipolar globalism of the modern world would be definitely nice though, especially if it’s Vic3.

That would be the one time not to do it.

 

[Denkt]

If you assume that European Powers during early modern have anything like todays US capacity to wage war oversea, you would be wrong. Alot of the European colonization was built on the poltical situation of the areas, like conquest of the Azetec, the vast majority of the spanish army was natives. In EUIV however this is not represented at all and basically everyone can send enormous armies oversea and conquer other nations, something that would not be easy even with todays technology, let alone technology 500 years ago.

Sure today a country like US could probably conquer something like Europé without no local support but it is very different 500 years ago.

Also EUIV treats military technology likt it work today in which being behind a decade is an enormous disadvantage and US behind like 20 years ahead of everyone else is considered a superpower but the technology gap was much smaller during EUIV time than it is today, technology in 20 years would not have changed as much as it do today.

 

[Agoria]

If ming had instead kept on exploring like they did to the African coast and potentially with Europe and learn of America, I could see them having colonies as well.

Just a technical observation.
You understimate what exploring the Atlantic was. If the Chinese didn't, it's not only a matter of policy. Chinese ships wouldn't have resisted the Atlantic's swell, currents, tempests. It was too big and built by vertically put together compartments. It was designed for far more peaceful oceans.
Talking about exploring and colonizing as non-europeans, it actually happened : austronesians colonized half the planet. From Madagascar to Easter Island, probably Chili. 2000 years before Zheng He was born. I wish you'd be less sino-centered.

 

[Agoria]

Christianity existing to unite Europe? Luck.
Columbus screwing up Italian and Arabic miles but still reaching the New World? Luck.
The Aztecs having the gold Europe needed when the Ottomans were about to cause a continental economic crash? Luck.
The natives who owned those resources being extremely vulnerable to Old World diseases? Luck.
The Aztec capital encountering a famine right as the Spanish-led coalition is on its doorstep? Luck.
All of this happening as the Inca, people who based their Empire's legitimacy on its ability to expand their borders and who built a massive road along the Empire, running out of land to conquer? Luck.
South America being covered in mineral riches? Luck.
The North Sea being just inhospitable enough for the British to be able to get away with privateering Spanish gold? Luck.
An ocean route to India existing? Luck.
The Muslims who occupied Iberia just happening to have the technology required to sail for long distances, but not using it for Atlantic exploration earlier?
Africans being able to survive the working conditions for farming sugar? Luck.
Kilwans lacking the ability to fight off Portuguese exploration vessels? Luck.
The Indian Ocean being chock full of goods that would sell well in Europe, right as the Europeans came into possession of extremely high amounts of mineral wealth through the Americas? Luck.
Literally everything that happened in India? Luck.

They were given a technological catch-up button with the Silk Road and the fall of the Byzantine Empire, a crap ton of mineral wealth from the Americas, sailing technology from the Muslims, and the perfect position for snowballing, since they got their wealth by looting the existing trade routes from half the globe away. All the while, Eastern Europeans were loyal enough to their faith, something they got from Israel, to defend them instead of turning on them to loot them for the gold they were bringing in.

If Europe was playing according to the same rules as everyone else, they would've collapsed from the Ottoman disruption of the Silk Road's trade. They would not have found two continents full of Deus Ex Machina set specifically to be easily conquered right as the Europeans arrived.

Life on Earth : luck

 

[Lightwell]

Life on Earth : luck

Thanks for understanding. Luck is normal. It's not something to be ashamed of.

 

[Agoria]

Thanks for understanding. Luck is normal. It's not something to be ashamed of.

When ones are better than others in a way in something (for example, "Kilwans lacking the ability to fight off Portuguese exploration vessels") you call it luck, then it's the case for every civilization that succeeded in any way at any moment. What you call "luck" is causality. It's the opposite of what we usually use the word "luck" for.

 

[Lightwell]

When ones are better than others in a way in something (for example, "Kilwans lacking the ability to fight off Portuguese exploration vessels") you call it luck, then it's the case for every civilization that succeeded in any way at any moment. What you call "luck" is causality. It's the opposite of what we usually use the word "luck" for.

Luck and cause-effect relationships aren't opposites at all. I could just as easily say a dice roll is a demonstration of the laws of physics. Portugal encountering a nation that couldn't fight them off? It's both.

 

[Father of Nations]

If Europe was playing according to the same rules as everyone else, they would've collapsed from the Ottoman disruption of the Silk Road's trade. They would not have found two continents full of Deus Ex Machina set specifically to be easily conquered right as the Europeans arrived.

I‘m not sure how to interpret this, but yeah, I guess we’re lucky being able to play Europa Universalis and not Neanderthal Universalis. Though, I wouldn’t mind playing the latter, provided we get gain enough insight in the history of that species.

By the way, how about creating the sequel Africa Universalis? After all, that’s where all of us came from.

 

[safe-keeper]

Discovering the existence of a nation you'd later conquer (or, in most cases, influence) isn't the beginning of an age of dominance. It begins when you actually begin the conquests.
Also, your map is off. Ethiopia was never colonized, and it's extremely difficult to tell blue from light blue, but India wasn't conquered by Europe. They were conquered by nations European companies had immense influence with. Same deal with Nigeria.

I think you might be colour blind. I see the map as green and blue.

 

[Lightwell]

I think you might be colour blind. I see the map as green and blue.

Just remembered I set my screen to night mode. It shows as turquoise and a very close shade of blue. Nevermind.

I‘m not sure how to interpret this, but yeah, I guess we’re lucky being able to play Europa Universalis and not Neanderthal Universalis. Though, I wouldn’t mind playing the latter, provided we get gain enough insight in the history of that species.

By the way, how about creating the sequel Africa Universalis? After all, that’s where all of us came from.

I'm not the slightest bit certain what you're trying to say here.

 

[XxNovaStarxX]

Your all wrong

 

[Undead Martyr]

Universalis is a very broad word and means everything from everywhere to everything to all encompassing.

The Euro focus is fine in the current context, but it wasn't out of the question for certain historical events to pan out differently. Mings isolationist policy is the most notable. If ming had instead kept on exploring like they did to the African coast and potentially with Europe and learn of America, I could see them having colonies as well.

It's really not about reducing what we have now, but expanding the story elsewhere.

I think the Japanese would have been more likely to take outward view- they sent embassies to Rome, were leafing the world in gun technology, and had high literacy and a booking population. If, say, Date Masamune had become shogun, or the trade focused Shimazu in Kyushu, I can see them taking a much more proactive role in SE Asia.