EU5: A focus on Things outside of Europe

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Pbhuh

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EDIT: Title Changed to Reflect the Discussion better.

A lot has happened to Europa Universalis games with every game focusing more and more on things outside Europe as well with in many ways Eu4s most important nation, Ottomans, being on the periphery and not the center of Europe. I think perhaps a focus change or even a name change could reflect the scope of a game more about the early modern era than just about european colonization. This is the reason why I personally think a title change could help. Differentiate it from previous Eurocentric gameplay and extend it to the entire World. Terra.

Remove the Eurocentric effects of the game. Add unique and more interesting history to the rest of the world. Institutions or ages for example are very Eurocentric, while more Eastern ideas aren't included. What about the Eastern ideals of Confucius and meritocracy vs the European ideals of Feudalism and the rennaissance.

There are many options and I think the next title of the 1444 grand strategy should reflect a change in perception. Keep the European history and things, perhaps expand on it, but don't limit it to Europe.
 
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Dmitrius

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Boom. Controversial title and subject, but hear me out.

I'm not suggesting we should not look for the next Europa Universalis title. No, the opposite. I think we should hope for one. But I think Europa Universalis V is not the right aim or title.

We should be looking for Terra Universalis.

A lot has happened to Europa Universalis games with every game focusing more and more on things outside Europe as well with in many ways Eu4s most important nation, Ottomans, being on the periphery and not the center of Europe.

Perhaps it doesn't matter. Everybody knows Europa Universalis, so why change something so fundamental? It has history, a boardgame was based off it and still the game focuses heavily on Europe.

And its exactly that last reason why I personally think a title change could help. Differentiate it from previous Eurocentric gameplay and extend it to the entire World. Terra.

Remove the Eurocentric effects of the game. Add unique and more interesting history to the rest of the world. Institutions or ages for example are very Eurocentric, while more Eastern ideas aren't included. What about the Eastern ideals of Confucius and meritocracy vs the European ideals of Feudalism and the rennaissance.

There are many options and I think the next title of the 1444 grand strategy should reflect a change in perception. Keep the European history and things, perhaps expand on it, but don't limit it to Europe.
I'm all for expanding the game past Europe, but I'm not clear on what you mean by removing eurocentric design?

Europe was what it was due to technological superiority and a brutal colonisation policy. I'm not sure how you change that.

One things I've always advocated for would be more elastic trade routes that allowed say.... Japan to become a major trade centre, colonizing the western America's. But even then that would require, for me, an optional ahistorical mode.

History doesn't support great variance in the starting position of the current game. 1444 was a turning point for many cultures, but ultimately it was the beginning of European supremacy. Just like how a modern game with a similar theme would largely be at the US and China's advantage.

Btw Terra Universallis is a silly name, earth everywhere doesn't mean anything.
 
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Pbhuh

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I'm all for expanding the game past Europe, but I'm not clear on what you mean by removing eurocentric design?

Europe was what it was due to technological superiority and a brutal colonisation policy. I'm not sure how you change that.

One things I've always advocated for would be more elastic trade routes that allowed say.... Japan to become a major trade centre, colonizing the western America's. But even then that would require, for me, an optional ahistorical mode.

History doesn't support great variance in the starting position of the current game. 1444 was a turning point for many cultures, but ultimately it was the beginning of European supremacy. Just like how a modern game with a similar theme would largely be at the US and China's advantage.

Btw Terra Universallis is a silly name, earth everywhere doesn't mean anything.

Universalis is a very broad word and means everything from everywhere to everything to all encompassing.

The Euro focus is fine in the current context, but it wasn't out of the question for certain historical events to pan out differently. Mings isolationist policy is the most notable. If ming had instead kept on exploring like they did to the African coast and potentially with Europe and learn of America, I could see them having colonies as well.

It's really not about reducing what we have now, but expanding the story elsewhere.
 

Dmitrius

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Universalis is a very broad word and means everything from everywhere to everything to all encompassing.

The Euro focus is fine in the current context, but it wasn't out of the question for certain historical events to pan out differently. Mings isolationist policy is the most notable. If ming had instead kept on exploring like they did to the African coast and potentially with Europe and learn of America, I could see them having colonies as well.

It's really not about reducing what we have now, but expanding the story elsewhere.
Again, it's fine to want fantasy modes for the game. But the default position and rules should be historically based.
 

Denkt

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See Imperator: Rome, it make basically all nations rather equal but still can produce results like rise of Rome. Sure 1500s western part of Europe may had a more productive economy (per capita) than for example China but this can be represented in the same way as Italy have a large population in Imperator: Rome and like how population can be changed in Imperator: Rome, in the same way it would be possible to turn China into a more productive economy than Europe.

Once the game start is once alternative history would start:)
 

Dmitrius

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See Imperator: Rome, it make basically all nations rather equal but still can produce results like rise of Rome. Sure 1500s western part of Europe may had a more productive economy (per capita) than for example China but this can be represented in the same way as Italy have a large population in Imperator: Rome and like how population can be changed in Imperator: Rome, in the same way it would be possible to turn China into a more productive economy than Europe.

Once the game start is once alternative history would start:)
I'm not sure Imperator Rome is where I'd hang my historical accuracy hat. I mean I turned the British tribes into a technological powerhouse by declaring to my hairy arsed brethren that they were now citizens.

Hey presto, 60 years later, I was rampaging across Europe in my lazer chariot (ok made that little bit up) laughing at all the roman slaves I could put to work in my 3rd mega city, total population 2 million.
 

Evan05

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The Euro focus is fine in the current context, but it wasn't out of the question for certain historical events to pan out differently. Mings isolationist policy is the most notable. If ming had instead kept on exploring like they did to the African coast and potentially with Europe and learn of America, I could see them having colonies as well.

That's absurdist and far out alternate history that is anyone's guess. In reality, by 1492 with the beginning exploration and conquest of the Americas, Europe would be the centric master of the world until 1945. Even after, the US would become a world leader that is essentially European in its conduct, and the USSR, an also European and advanced country. Europe rather directly or through its history/indirectly would dominate the world after 1492.
 

Pbhuh

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That's absurdist and far out alternate history that is anyone's guess. In reality, by 1492 with the beginning exploration and conquest of the Americas, Europe would be the centric master of the world until 1945. Even after, the US would become a world leader that is essentially European in its conduct, and the USSR, an also European and advanced country. Europe rather directly or through its history/indirectly would dominate the world after 1492.
No, a far out alternate reality is something that could never have happened.

Absurdist?? Excuse me? One turn of events, Ming's isolationism, is huge and would shape the collapse of the East as a powerhouse. This single event, if it did not happen could have changed history in such fundamental ways, its a key point in history, it isnt out of the question it could have gone different. Many other things require bigger changes, like the US not joining WW1 or something like that. This was a decision made by the government of China.
 
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I'm not sure Imperator Rome is where I'd hang my historical accuracy hat. I mean I turned the British tribes into a technological powerhouse by declaring to my hairy arsed brethren that they were now citizens.

Hey presto, 60 years later, I was rampaging across Europe in my lazer chariot (ok made that little bit up) laughing at all the roman slaves I could put to work in my 3rd mega city, total population 2 million.
Realistically there are smaller differences between a british tribe and the roman empire than there is between a rich and poor country today. Roman Empire would be as poor as the poorest countries are today to get an idea. Like any country up to like 1900 or even later would be considered poor by todays standard.

Europe was what it was due to technological superiority and a brutal colonisation policy. I'm not sure how you change that.
The technological gap during EUIV time period was rather limited, not anything like it is today and the game wastly overstate the impact of military technology in which a single or two tech levels can have massive effect. Everyone had a brutal colonization policy from what I know, not anything unique about european nations.

To get an idea, there is probably smaller technology difference between Roman Empire year 1 and and united kingdom year 1800 than it is between united kingdom year 1800 and the US year 2020.

In fact more economic gains have been made in the period 1960-2020 than the rest of human history and that maybe apply to technology as well.

Absurdist?? Excuse me? One turn of events, Ming's isolationism, is huge and would shape the collapse of the East as a powerhouse. This single event, if it did not happen could have changed history in such fundamental ways, its a key point in history, it isnt out of the question it could have gone different. Many other things require bigger changes, like the US not joining WW1 or something like that. This was a decision made by the government of China.
Qing dynasty controlled a larger amount of territories than any other time during Chinas history (except if you count the mongols but I'm not sure they should count or not) from what I can tell and that is inside EUIV timeframe.
 
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Realistically there are smaller differences between a british tribe and the roman empire than there is between a rich and poor country today. Roman Empire would be as poor as the poorest countries are today to get an idea. Like any country up to like 1900 or even later would be considered poor by todays standard.


The technological gap during EUIV time period was rather limited, not anything like it is today and the game wastly overstate the impact of military technology in which a single or two tech levels can have massive effect. Everyone had a brutal colonization policy from what I know, not anything unique about european nations.

To get an idea, there is probably smaller technology difference between Roman Empire year 1 and and united kingdom year 1800 than it is between united kingdom year 1800 and the US year 2020.

In fact more economic gains have been made in the period 1960-2020 than the rest of human history and that maybe apply to technology as well.


Qing dynasty controlled a larger amount of territories than any other time during Chinas history (except if you count the mongols but I'm not sure they should count or not) from what I can tell and that is inside EUIV timeframe.
What? I'm sorry, read about Greco-Roman engineering and architectural triumphs and tell me they were close. Nothing produced in Northern Europe comes close. It wasn't until the 18th century in northern Europe that city planning and fresh water plumbing equalled what was developed in Rome.

Using the modern world as an example makes no sense, we're talking about the 15th century.
 

Denkt

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What? I'm sorry, read about Greco-Roman engineering and architectural triumphs and tell me they were close. Nothing produced in Northern Europe comes close. It wasn't until the 18th century in northern Europe that city planning and fresh water plumbing equalled what was developed in Rome.
What I said is the technological gap between ancient Rome and world year 1800 is smaller than the gap between 1800 to modern world. In fact the gap just between 1960s to 2020s is enormous in absolute terms. In fact everything up to like 1800s-1900s would if put on a curve would be quite flat, and when it would explode upwards.

Using the modern world as an example makes no sense, we're talking about the 15th century.
To get an idea, USA the last 30 years or so have had a larger economic growth in absolute term than the whole world had during the EUIV time period.

So in absolute term there was hardly any technological or economic growth in the EUIV time period if put relative to what comes after it and Europe did not have that much technological advantage (EUIV greatly exaggerate the impact of military technology to a level more fitting the 21th century). Like the Romans, there was many reasons why the europeans managed to colonize such large parts of the world and much of that also happened after the EUIV time period.

Imperator: Rome have a much more resonable impact of military technology in which you can still beat nations hundreds of years ahead in military technology.
 
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Players who care about immersion, like me, disagree with you.
 
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Players who care about immersion, like me, disagree with you.
EUIV is more like a board game than a realistic representation about the time period, it is hard to actually describe it as realistic at all. However it may be a good idea to have a focus and get a small part of the world correct first and expand to more and more detail.

But is ment to be a game, not a history lesson. It would be really hard to give the time period fairness in a video game while also keeping the fun.
 
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WeissRaben

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That's absurdist and far out alternate history that is anyone's guess. In reality, by 1492 with the beginning exploration and conquest of the Americas, Europe would be the centric master of the world until 1945. Even after, the US would become a world leader that is essentially European in its conduct, and the USSR, an also European and advanced country. Europe rather directly or through its history/indirectly would dominate the world after 1492.
Not really. The line dividing European success from Asian success fell into place somewhere around the 1700s, more likely the late 1700s. Up to that point, there was one field where Europe as a whole was dominant, and that was naval technology.
 
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Denkt

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Up to that point, there was one field where Europe as a whole was dominant, and that was naval technology.
Even that was not too far, Europé did suffer some naval defeates in asia if I remember correctly and Japan did have plans to build spanish style galleons.

brutal colonisation policy
European colonization was successful because they was often able to find local allies, like against the Aztec and I think India was the same, it was not united by any means and that allowed the east india Company to take Control over it, now if the Mughal empire was around it may not have been possible.

That's absurdist and far out alternate history that is anyone's guess. In reality, by 1492 with the beginning exploration and conquest of the Americas, Europe would be the centric master of the world until 1945. Even after, the US would become a world leader that is essentially European in its conduct, and the USSR, an also European and advanced country. Europe rather directly or through its history/indirectly would dominate the world after 1492.
You have to go to the 1800s to make such claim, this is just determinism taken to extreme.
 
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WeissRaben

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Even that was not too far, Europé did suffer some naval defeates in asia if I remember correctly and Japan did have plans to build spanish style galleons.
In the first half of the game's timeframe there were some quite successful attempts, by the richest powers in Asia, to keep up with Western navies, but those got more and more unsuccessful as time wore on; and Europe was still the main motor of innovation in the field even in the beginning. The 1400s are the last time Asian navies were the peer, or better, of their European equivalent, and fully on their merits. Compare and contrast with the use of muskets in Japan: though they were initially imported from Europe, a native industry quickly ballooned in size, making their improvements on both the weapons and the tactics without any Western input. Or Mysorean rockets, one of the latest examples of native technology being adapted by European powers and not the other way around, all the way in the very last years of the 18th century.
 
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However it may be a good idea to have a focus and get a small part of the world correct first and expand to more and more detail.

This is my favourite quote from this thread. Although I'd like to change the context by saying that it perhaps should apply to game mechanics rather than a geographical area.

Trade for instance. As I've understood things trade was the kick in the behind which made Europeans start colonizing.

But trade could likewise be a deep and fun system for all countries.

That way we could perhaps still have Europa Universalis, without too much eurocentric design.
 

Belryuminus

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This is my favourite quote from this thread. Although I'd like to change the context by saying that it perhaps should apply to game mechanics rather than a geographical area.

Trade for instance. As I've understood things trade was the kick in the behind which made Europeans start colonizing.

But trade could likewise be a deep and fun system for all countries.

That way we could perhaps still have Europa Universalis, without too much eurocentric design.

What would maybe make sense if we want a way to re-balance trade in a upcoming EU5 would for example to divide it in two :
  1. A "local trade" with direct neigboors, and even between regions if a "local trade power" system can be implemented. It's value and directions would depend on production, merchants ability, trade places (powerful markets or not), geographic and needs of a region compared to another.
  2. An international trade system, quite like EU4 one which indeed represents the European domination over the global trade. It's capacity to influence it via brutal and massive colonization, implementing powerful trade companies, and bullying potential threats.