EU4's recent Steam reviews are now at Mixed with 48% rating. Discuss?

[Fire and Ash]

I think a lot of this is that quite a bit of the DLC should really have been included in the Expansion Packs. Even then some of the expansion packs should have been included in other Expansion packs. Finally some of the features in the DLC or Expansion packs some people were arguing for since day 1.

I think this just PI setting themselves up with this DLC model and it shows. A good chunk if not the majority, isn't really on the game at all, just the DLC.

That said, i will almost put up with it, as long as they start getting out sequels and new IPs faster than they currently are.

How long have we waited on a new Rome or Vic

 

[Nicolas-]

Europa Universalis 4 is the most expensive game I can think of. Is it the best game though? No. It's good. But it's not worth 260$ (with DLCs).

That's what the issue is. When you charge 260$ and the multiplayer feature for example is still broken and unstable, people aren't going to be happy with it.

 

[Uboa]

I glanced over at the storepage a minute ago, and saw a review from one player who had 3,357 hours to their credit. "Not recommended".

Have to say I feel sorry for that person. Imagine spending 4 months of your life engaged in a totally optional leisure activity, but not feeling that you could recommend it to others who are presumably also interested in that same leisure activity.

I really hate this sort of thinking, because it denigrates their review solely on the flawed logic that, since they put so many hours into the game, they have to really like the game, but that they're just being a whiner and posting a negative review because of some recent minor grievance.

The reviews on Steam exist to convince new players whether they should or shouldn't purchase a game. That person with 3000+ hours in the game is telling new players, "Do not buy this game, because the DLC is excessive to the point of ridiculousness and the publisher is arbitrarily raising prices to further nickel and dime you." And quite frankly, I have to agree with him. I'd love to get some of my friends into playing CK2 or EUIV with me, but every time they look at the store page and how much DLC they have to buy to not miss out on nigh essential game mechanics, they immediately get turned off. At this point, the mantra of "wait for a sale" is almost mandatory (but even then, I still have to try and convince my broke friends to buy the $40 bundle + another $30 for DLC that wasn't put on sale). And while I don't live in one of the regions affected by this sudden price increase, I have to say that it really stinks of impropriety, and further convinces me that Paradox is really putting profit ahead of customer satisfaction.

 

[Pile_O_Gunz]

I like the model. Frequent new stuff that keeps the game fresh.

The problem is the barrier to entry. The should. Bite the bullet and release a much cheaper collection pack. Include everything up to Mandate of Heaven for £15. Every new dlc they release they add another onto the collection edition. Keep It 2 dlc behind to incentive people to pay full price for the new ones.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

I really don't participate in forums anymore (maybe occasional bug reporting, that's about it). I've played Paradox games quite a lot since 2002, owned just about all their major titles over the years. With my new account, after the forum got revamped a couple years back, I have all the EU4 DLC except the latest 2 (MoH & TR).

I don't think I'm going to buy any more. I wish I could bring myself to do it, but I just have a fundamental disagreement -on principle- with how things are done these days. And when that personal feeling grows stronger than any desire to add a few extra features for 20 bucks a pop (don't forget the 'content pack', if you want the associated graphics), my wallet stays in my pocket.

It's just the way things are done nowadays, man. Take Civ 6 for example. Brand new game... you pay up for it. Oh, but wait... you want to play as the POLES? Well, that'll be extra, pal. And if you want the complete game that was JUST released, just go ahead and give us your whole paycheck. And keep it coming, for the next five years!

Anyway, I don't know how old you guys are, but in the 90s, whenever 'expansion packs' were released - they were generally always worth it. And they didn't come in spades... 1 or 2 and that was about it. Before this becomes a full-scale rant, I'll just close by saying that this new business model (that's progressively evolving) in the 21 century just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe the younger generation can tolerate it, because it's the only thing they know. But alas, it seems even they have their limits. The ratings are real. You guys might want to live in denial about that, here at the Paradox home base -- but I think I can assure you, this 'questionable' popular sentiment is indeed fact-based.

I'm pretty much done. I guess with every new DLC that I don't buy, my game will become increasingly less balanced & less playable. That's fine. I'll just consider that a 'parting gift'.

So PDX, what do you think the odds are that I'm going to buy EU5? C'mon, you guys love "% chance". What d'ya think?

 

[TentacleMayor]

As you can see, I'm a longterm fan who's bought a lot of Paradox's releases. I'm also someone that rarely gets to spend much, so often I had to pick a Paradox game or DLC over every other option. I never regretted it, because I knew what I was getting and that I'd get value out of it. Both of these have been compromised of late, as PDS release more and more minimalistic DLCs (Mare Nostrum seems anemic to say the least) and discounts them less than ever before. Value or no (and there's certainly less of that now), it's quite disgusting that many DLCs are much more expensive on sale now than they were years ago. In short, I feel Paradox have gone way oveboard with the greed. I've left a negative review on Steam and will remove it if they ease up on the fleecing. Needless to say, I'll spend my 5 or 10 euros a month on something with the same price but way more content. Firaxis aren't universally liked, but they've kept alive the ''big expansion'' model rather than this modular DLC thing. And they're not averse to big discounts.

I can't imagine a company which will change its policy due to forum posts.

Good companies do this. They at least have people keep an eye on the trends in the community because many of the most reliable customers will also be engaged in the forums, youtube, twitch, whatever. When Wargaming EU decided to have lesser ingame rewards than the other regions, the community revolted. Soon after, Wargaming backtracked and offered equal treatment to EU server.

 

[Dakka]

Europa Universalis 4 is the most expensive game I can think of

Clearly you've never heard of Train Simulator or The Sims

arbitrarily raising prices to further nickel and dime you.

It wasn't arbitrary. Like it or not they did have a reason: to match fluctuating conversion rates. I would imagine that with recent political and economical changes the value of the American Dollar is rising and makes other currencies less valuable, hence the raise in price for a lot of nations, to meet the same economical value of $40 USD base game and whatever for the Expansions. Not saying I agree or disagree whether it's right, just presenting their reasoning.

 

[TentacleMayor]

Clearly you've never heard of Train Simulator or The Sims

It wasn't arbitrary. Like it or not they did have a reason: to match fluctuating conversion rates. I would imagine that with recent political and economical changes the value of the American Dollar is rising and makes other currencies less valuable, hence the raise in price for a lot of nations, to meet the same economical value of $40 USD base game and whatever for the Expansions. Not saying I agree or disagree whether it's right, just presenting their reasoning.

A euro is still worth more than a dollar. Given that, it's BS that they're priced the same amount to begin with but then they've also lowered the discount from 75% to 50%. It's a patently BS excuse.

 

[Metz]

The first DLCs should be included in the base game by now.

Maybe sell EU4 in different ways.

EU4 Basic Edition - cheap and basic game with only Conquest of Paradise. $14.99
EU4 Royal Edition - relatively cheap and some DLCs, maybe up to Art of War. $39.99
EU4 Imperial Edition - average price but on the cheap side with several of the first DLCs maybe up to the Cossacks. $59.99
EU4 Ultimate Edition - Expensive but still accesible and it includes all DLCs up to the Rights of Man. $79.99

The music packs could be clumped up into big Music Pack 1 and 2, etc.. Same with skin packs.

As time passes by, the editions will absorb the next DLC in turn.

 

[Dakka]

A euro is still worth more than a dollar. Given that, it's BS that they're priced the same amount to begin with but then they've also lowered the discount from 75% to 50%. It's a patently BS excuse.

Then I just don't know. Personally I live in the US so it hasn't made much difference to me overall. :/

 

[Tanesis]

I own EU4 and all the DLCs except the ebooks. I have spent 1777 hours in game showing I have no social life. In regards to EU4 I would NEVER have gotten near that number of hours without the flow of DLCs. When I convert hours played/Price paid I really have no cause for complain. I usually judge a games value by £££ spent/hours played and if I arrive at £1 or less then I think its fair to say good value.

That been said I work full time and can easily fund my EU4 addiction though I understand why some people get frustrated. I would have no problem if PI gave some of the older DLCs away for free as it would be a good way to get new people into the game currently.

If I was a potential new customer looking to buy EU4 I would definately be put off by the sheer number of DLCs, Music packs, Sprite packs and Ebooks on the market. And that makes me sadface as EU4 is awesome.

 

[hitchens]

Yes, some people in this thread get it. For us that have all the previous ones a new DLC aint much money and it is worth it. But if you dont own the game and have to fork out a 100 then you might be disencouraged because there are som many cheap games on STEAM. Why take a chance and buy a game you know little about when you can buy some random AAA title thats 75% off?

There should be some type of milestone on Paradox games, after X expansions the previous ones should be bundled into the game. For us that already own the game and DLC's it wont matter, but for the ones that dont, it will. Its a win win for Paradox really.

 

[JCivX]

I see a lot of misguided logic in this thread (among a few well-thought out posts) so a few points:

• People complaining that new patches and DLCs make the game more and more unbalanced and "force" you to buy the new DLCs have an easy option: stop buying DLCs AND stop updating your game. You have that option. If you're happy with your current version of EU4 and don't want to pay any more, that's cool. You can freeze the version you have and play until eternity. And please don't retort by saying that "then I won't get free updates / bug fixes anymore". You've had 4 years worth of free updates and fixes - that's more than almost any other game ever.

• If a game has been out for four years, a few things happen: inflation and exchange rate changes. That is why changing prices in some markets is absolutely necessary and totally logical if you know anything about economics. Complaining about price hikes without understanding these concepts is an empty argument. It would be one thing to point that they hiked the price in some markets way too much in relation to another market and/or in relation to forex rates and inflation, but I haven't seen any such analysis.

• People yearning for days when "only one or two expansions were released that were essential" or when "games were finished when they were released" are usually suffering from a big lack of perspective.

• First: many games back in the day were often unbalanced, buggy, and broken in many ways. All had at least some issues. Often many of the things went unfixed, forever. There were maybe a few free patches immediately after release to fix the worst issues and that's it. People still enjoyed many of those games, by the way. Similar to how most people here enjoyed the EU4 base game - it was widely considered to be a good game and there was little if any discussion about EU4 being "an incomplete game" at release.

• Second: EU4 has more extra content in their DLCs than would ever fit in 1-2 "traditional expansion packs". EU4 as a game has been extremely responsive to what fans want both in terms of new features and also fixes to what's already there. In many ways EU4 has been in continuous development similar to some subscription-based games. The more stuff you get, the more you have to pay. The argument that most stuff currently in EU4 would have been in a base game + 1-2 expansions in the past is just blatantly false. The amount of developer time that has gone into EU4 is really huge. If you don't agree how some of that time (i.e. money) has been spent in terms of features, that's cool. That's a legitimate argument and then you just don't buy the DLC. People get used to features so easily - what they didn't even think of back when the base game was released, now it's "an essential feature" that "should've been in the base game". No, it doesn't work that way. Back in the day all those features would have been in the next version of the game or even the version after that.

I agree with some of the points like Paradox missing the mark sometimes with what's in the free patch and what's behind a paywall (they've admitted this themselves) and making the base game cheaper or bundling it with some of the older DLCs. To me it sounds like good customer service and also not bad business (remember: this is a business). Then again, I'm fairly sure Paradox has done the math and have figured out the way to maximize their revenue and that explains why it's still useful for them to keep the base game close to the original price. That is what businesses do: they provide a good or a service that people want to pay for and then try to maximize their revenue. This is not greed, this is the essence of business.

And charging prices that most people feel are too high is NOT a good way to maximize revenue, by the way. You lose customers that way. You want to price it so you still have high demand and people are happy to buy your product, but you don't want to leave money on the table if many of these customers were willing to pay a higher price for the product. If you think some of these DLCs are overpriced, that's cool. I personally think some of them have been too expensive for me to buy at release compared to what I perceived the value to be. But clearly the majority of the customers have disagreed because EU4 sales figures have been very good and Paradox keeps making DLCs. Clearly the overall customer base has been happy.

Bottom line: I think this is a very useful discussion. I just personally feel it would be a bit more productive if people had a bit more legitimate historical perspective and understood some of the business dynamics.

 

[horgoz]

Europa Universalis 4 is the most expensive game I can think of. Is it the best game though? No. It's good. But it's not worth 260$ (with DLCs).

That's what the issue is. When you charge 260$ and the multiplayer feature for example is still broken and unstable, people aren't going to be happy with it.

Train simulator with all DLC included is currently at 5060.29 euro, yes, over 5k euro

 

[hitchens]

My eyes are rolling so hard they are about of fall out of my head.

I see a lot of misguided logic in this thread (among a few well-thought out posts) so a few points:

• People complaining that new patches and DLCs make the game more and more unbalanced and "force" you to buy the new DLCs have an easy option: stop buying DLCs AND stop updating your game.

Yes, and what a helpful thing for Paradox, people not buying their content.

 

[TheAtreides84]

Not really much to discuss. I've seen it happen to excellent games like TW: Warhammer, which a much more tame DLC policy than EUIV. In all cases, it's just kids venting an irrational hate of DLCs just because they can't afford to buy them all in one go. There is a whole lot of those children on Steam. Well, kids, know what? I also can't. I wait for sales and buy them across a longer timespan. I do not feel the need to leave silly negative reviews for that reason only nor I feel jealous of people who own more DLCs then me. I can also survive just fine without playing games for some weeks while I wait.

Let's grow up, shall we?

 

[Solaxe]

Given the frequency with which the EU4 base game and most of the earlier DLC is put on sale at a significant discount, I find this line of argument pretty unconvincing.

yea but new players don't know abotu that

 

[TheAtreides84]

i have like 90% of dlcs (including song and unit packs) and i wouldnt mind since i bought em a lot of time ago, i would not care if dlc older than 2 years would become bundled with the base game or not... but not everybody is like me and most people would feel cheated and get angry... so... well... thats a very tricky question

I also would not really care nor hold a grudge against new players. But I would surely wait for such bundles in the future, from that moment on. It would be just the smart thing to do. Not really sure Paradox is ok with this kind of result.

 

[hitchens]

it's just kids venting an irrational hate of DLCs just because they can't afford to buy them all in one go. There is a whole lot of those children on Steam.

There are a lot of consumer oriented adults who are used to the insane amount of discount offered on STEAM.

Well, kids, know what? I also can't. I wait for sales and buy them across a longer timespan. I do not feel the need to leave silly negative reviews for that reason only nor I feel jealous of people who own more DLCs then me. I can also survive just fine without playing games for some weeks while I wait.

At least you got to signal virtue, but its not like anyone who are curious about the game will read it.

 

[TheAtreides84]

At least you got to signal virtue, but its not like anyone who are curious about the game will read it.

I'm not signaling virtue, I'm just salty against those people with their silly reviews because they sometimes convince developers to not release anymore DLC, thus denying other players some fun.