EU4 Poland is completely broken

[Arinsar]

Poland has one of the strongest throne claiming games with elective...

Which is bs since polish nobility wasnt intrested in king regin over another country (vide Vasa wanting Tsardom for himself during Times of Trouble). Elective monarchy in current form have only flaws and doesnt resemble political system of Poland / Commonwealth (in example fact that KING was elected after previous king was dead).

 

[Zaddy]

1. Poland has the best National Ideas in the game bar none. There is no conceivable argument with merit that can be made to deny this.

I agree with your overall point but...

Manchu
Mughals
Yuan
Generic Horde
Golden Horde
Ottomans

Are all much better than Poland. Sure, Poland has the gimmicky cav silliness and general supersoldiers, same as Prussia, but I'd take core creation cost reductions over anything in Poland's idea set.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

Ok, you're bad at the game.

1. Poland has the best National Ideas in the game bar none. There is no conceivable argument with merit that can be made to deny this.

Manchu Ideas are better. My argument: -20% Core Creation Cost.
Manchu ideas might be the best non-formable ideas in the game.

 

[damnt512]

I'm sorry, but, you're having difficulty playing Poland ? That is not right. Poland often ended up as the game's great power when they formed the commonwealth, they're already quite powerful even before the Commonwealth is formed. You're not doing this right. Poland is a powerful country. I believe you need to leanr a bit more about the game.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

1. Poland has the best National Ideas in the game bar none. There is no conceivable argument with merit that can be made to deny this.

No, this is pretty debatable.

 

[swagmeister]

Poland is a hard start guys. You're one bad battle away from having no manpower in the beginning. controlling the subject AI is wonky at best even if you order them to attach or support since they will really want to doomstack even if you make separate units for each tag to attach to causing massive attrition issues. To OP I'd recommend practicing other starts until you can manage the manpower nightmare that Poland is in the early game. Or just keep trying till you get a good game going.

 

[mag_zbc]

Poland has a great potential, but faces unique challenges in early game
+ best military ideas in game
+ free PU on Lithuania
+ multiple paths of expansion
+ with vassals and PU largest army in Europe
- low manpower and not rich enough to spam mercs early game
- surrounded by enemies, who tend to ally eachother
- no military tradition compared to potential enemies (Hungary, Austria, Muscovy, Teutonic Order)
- poor starting general
- ideas are great, but the kick in pretty late, so if you fail to expand early game, they will not help you
- bulk of your forces are AI-dependent
- poor economy
- super annoying Elective Monarchy events - a choice between tech cost malus and stability hit

I haven't played Poland for quite some time so I decided to check it out after reading this thread and I've got some pointers:
- TO allying Hungary is not a threat, but an opportunity: otherwise, you'd have no way to take clay from Hungary without involving Austria, who tend to ally Hungary in 90% of the games.
- TO allying Denmark is not an issue, because TO also allies Livonian Order - just have Lithuania fabricate claim on LO and declare on them. In my game, Lithuania for some reason failed to fabricate claims on anyone - so I had to no-CB LO. Occupy TO, take just Tuchel and Danzig from them and have them break alliance with Denmark (but not Hungary). You don't need to take more, you can save them for later. Take Tuchel and Danzig just to make sure Pomerania doesn't take it, and have them annul alliance with Denmark
- Declare on TO with Hungary as an ally - occupy Hungary and take just the two provinces bordering Bohemia and save the rest for later.
- declare on Muscovy and take just the two provinces - Moskva and the other one - that way you can save Muscovy for later, but you make sure Russia will not form - you can easily win war with Muscovy, just wait for them to attack Novogrod/Great Horde/Kazan - and strike when their manpower is low and war exhaustion is high. They wage a lot of wars around them, so just rinse and repeat.
- take everything from LO to dominate Baltic Sea trade node
- support Sweden's independence

By 1500:
- TO is broken and ripe for the taking
- Hungary's border with Bohemia is secured, I'm free to take Hungarian land whenever I feel like it
- Muscovy is broken and ripe for the taking
- Kalmar Union is broken
- taken entire LO and Novogrodian coast provinces

Poland is not a powerhouse like France, England, Austria or Castille, but it faces unique opportunities. You don't need to annihilate your enemies right away - just break them so they don't get ahead of you.

 

[Antiphates]

So if your problem in Denmark-TO alliance, support Swedish independance. This will benefit you later as Sweden and their spacetroopers (second only to your own hyperspacetroopers) will aid you against Russia. In order to beat the Russian-Otto alliance, kill Russia in it's cradle. Otto can't ally Russia if there's no Russia to ally. If it does form, just wait untill Otto is bogged down in a war against Mamlukes/Austria/Timmy and stab Russia. Ofc Otto will still be a problem but you can happily ignore them and eat HRE/Nordics/steppes untill you are an unstoppable blob of mercs and infinite manpower.

 

[hajutze]

The problem I see (mostly in MP but it applies to SP as well) is that people are overly aggressive at the start.

If you have problems at the start just wait for an opportunity.

 

[Foefaller]

I'd also like to mention again that taking Brandenburg as an ally and promising them land before the Treaty of Colln fires is a great way to buffer you from Denmark until you've smashed TO's and LO's army.

Also, you territory is huge; I've won several "doomed" wars by waiting for my enemies to start splitting up to siege down the forts and knocking them down one at a time before the other armies can get in to reinforce.

The problem I see (mostly in MP but it applies to SP as well) is that people are overly aggressive at the start.

If you have problems at the start just wait for an opportunity.

Not always a good idea, especially for Poland. Too many nations nearby that are both your equal (or stronger) and not likely to rival each other initially that could form alliances against you, and unlike France, you don't have the wealth and manpower to deal with an early multi-front war and still have a positive income afterwards.

 

[Zaddy]

Poland is a hard start guys. You're one bad battle away from having no manpower in the beginning. controlling the subject AI is wonky at best even if you order them to attach or support since they will really want to doomstack even if you make separate units for each tag to attach to causing massive attrition issues. To OP I'd recommend practicing other starts until you can manage the manpower nightmare that Poland is in the early game. Or just keep trying till you get a good game going.

Look I'm sorry, I don't want to be any elitist here, but if you consider a start with good ideas, a free vassal and march, and a free PU over a great power at the beginning of the game as a "hard" start, I can only really ask for you to realize how ridiculous that is. I'd even be hesitant to say Mazovia is a hard start, let alone Poland. I assure you I'm not that amazing at this game either. The hardest achievement I've ever done is Jihad.

 

[Foefaller]

Look I'm sorry, I don't want to be any elitist here, but if you consider a start with good ideas, a free vassal and march, and a free PU over a great power at the beginning of the game as a "hard" start, I can only really ask for you to realize how ridiculous that is. I'd even be hesitant to say Mazovia is a hard start, let alone Poland. I assure you I'm not that amazing at this game either. The hardest achievement I've ever done is Jihad.

I would say the first 20-50 years or so as Poland are pretty difficult, when the vast majority of your strength lies in your vassals (and vassal AI) and you are nowhere close to unlocking the ideas that make your army so terrifying. You can go on for days how powerful the Polish/Commonwealth army is with all the NIs after Piechota Wybraniecka and Winged Hussars are unlocked, they won't do you any good if Hungary jumps you during an already expensive war with Muscovy and the Kemlar Union in the 1480s. (which, BTW, actually happened to me once)

 

[bbqftw]

Poland is a hard start guys. You're one bad battle away from having no manpower in the beginning.

that's basically every nation lol

 

[mag_zbc]

they won't do you any good if Hungary jumps you during an already expensive war with Muscovy and the Kemlar Union in the 1480s

You don't have to deal with Kalmar Union at all if you don't attack TO directly - attack one of their allies instead, LO works best. If Lithuania doesn't fabricate on LO, it's ok to just swallow AE and stabhit and no-cb them. In first war take only Tuchel and Danzig (more land would give you too much AE and could lead to coalition) to make sure Pomerania doesn't take them, and have TO cancel alliance with Denmark. Note that if you no-CB LO, then you should increase relations with Brandenburg and Pomerania, otherwise they might join a coalition.

To secure yourself from Hungary, just ally Austria, which almost always starts with friendly attitude towards you.

War with Muscovy doesn't have to be expansive at all - strike when they are at the end or just after exhausting war with Novogrod, Great Horde or Kazan. If you attack them when they have high war exhaustion, low manpower, and already hired mercenaries, your war will not only be easier, but they will be forced to hire more and more mercenaries, which will make them go deeply in debt and neutralize any threat from their side for many years. The fact that AI never buys down war exhaustion with bird mana plays in your favor.

 

[mursolini]

OP's problem is that he is trying to invade too many big neighbors vital interests at the same time.

Denmark's issue with Poland is control over Baltic coast, which you can deal with by using TO and LO as your own proxy. Ally/guarantee them, keep them around till you actually dealt with Kalmar Union.

Muscovy is easy, guarantee Novgorod on day 1.

Ottomans can be dealt with by Byzantium alliance/guarantees. Should redirect their attention to Mamluks, giving you ally to take down Turks.

If Turks actually declare on Byzantium, you should be war leader, so you could sell Byz. land to get time.

 

[TenshiN]

Those kinds of threads in a nutshell:
*Player allies to a major and makes it fight its wars, doing nothing themselves* - "Haha, look at me go, i am so so good and clever!"
*Rival AI allies another rival AI so they can stand a better chance against the player menace* - "OMFG, unplayable! AI should not do anything even remotely clever!"

I will join the "git gud" crowd

 

[Foefaller]

You don't have to deal with Kalmar Union at all if you don't attack TO directly - attack one of their allies instead, LO works best. If Lithuania doesn't fabricate on LO, it's ok to just swallow AE and stabhit and no-cb them. In first war take only Tuchel and Danzig (more land would give you too much AE and could lead to coalition) to make sure Pomerania doesn't take them, and have TO cancel alliance with Denmark. Note that if you no-CB LO, then you should increase relations with Brandenburg and Pomerania, otherwise they might join a coalition.

To secure yourself from Hungary, just ally Austria, which almost always starts with friendly attitude towards you.

War with Muscovy doesn't have to be expansive at all - strike when they are at the end or just after exhausting war with Novogrod, Great Horde or Kazan. If you attack them when they have high war exhaustion, low manpower, and already hired mercenaries, your war will not only be easier, but they will be forced to hire more and more mercenaries, which will make them go deeply in debt and neutralize any threat from their side for many years. The fact that AI never buys down war exhaustion with bird mana plays in your favor.

Actually, let me explain what happened in further detail.

I *was* allied to Austria... which meant I got dragged into one her wars with France for the western HRE states, a France that was allied with post-Iberian Wedding Castile. This was round 2 of 3, and we won the last one so I knew this wasn't a hopeless battle that I needed to bail on. Still, it is France with Castile and their PUs, so despite my best efforts, I was still on the losing side of a couple of battles, not to mention having to deal with the occasional army backcapping me, it was in the middle of this that Denmark, allied with Muscovy, decided to wardec me. You see, after my first battle with TO, I had them break their alliance with Denmark, so the Kemlar Union had no reason to worry about breaking their alliance with them to target LO for all of their land while I was finishing of TO, so we now shared a border. It was in the middle of this fight, that Hungary decided to jump in. Now, I can't 100% recall if Hungry had actually broke their alliance with Austria or not, but it didn't matter, because Austria had snubbed me when Denmark/Muscovy attacked when they were still in the middle of their war with France/Castille.

So, to recap:

I attacked LO, to take all the land from TO, like I was suppose to,

I Allied with Austria to keep Hungary from attacking me in fear of breaking their own alliance, like I was suppose to,

...and yet I still found myself fighting 3 of the 4 biggest powers in Eastern Europe. If I didn't have a Diplomat permanently stationed to whisper sweet nothings into the ears of the Ottomans, I probably would have been fighting them as well. Now, granted I got through it without having to go bankrupt (though I might have had to debase my currency a couple of times to pay off enough loans that I wasn't losing money even with army maintenance at zero) but it was a near thing. I won't argue that I could have done better (keep in mind Muscovy and Denmark were allied pretty much from the beginning, despite what normally happens, so don't think I could have jumped on Muscovy at any point to weaken them) but I didn't do anything wrong, and I still came pretty damn close to losing it all. So please, armchair commander, what else could I have done to prevent this?

 

[mag_zbc]

So please, armchair commander, what else could I have done to prevent this?

Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to be even a halfway-decent player, and I'm far from Poland is easy, you just suck attitude.

What could have you do differently? The first thing that comes to mind is decline Austria's call to arms. Any alliance can and should be broken as soon as it stops being profitable to you - and being dragged into a clearly hopeless war with vastly superior foe is far from profitable. Hungary would never declare war on you, having less than half of the forces you, your vassals and Lithuania have. And with Austria fighting a loosing war, they wouldn't have anyone to back them up.

As for Kalmar Union - you need to take Danzig to be able to support Sweden's independence, but the second it's possible, you should do it. Even if they don't declare war for independence, high Liberty Desire will prevent them from helping out in any of Denmark's wars.

But again, I agree that it's easy to sit in your chair and give advice without having the full picture.

 

[Bibor]

Poland-Lithuania has one of the top starts starts in the game. It starts on equal footing to all the threathening powers - Muscovy, Ottomans, France.
The first 50 years should be spend on careful diplomacy and building your economy like crazy (economic, diplomatic/trade, aristocratic) with the side show of taking the Teuton lands.

The rationale is rather obvious. Apart from the Teuton land (primarly Danzig), the most lucrative territories that are actually worth a war and coring costs lay in Silesia, Northern Hungary, Bulgaria and Anatolia. Sweden and Russia have some nice lands, but these require development. Most of the lands to the East are crap and HRE is to the west.
The strategy for Poland is pretty similar to that of Hungary - Expand into Ottoman lands. If you can, make friends with France.

The mistake AI Poland does is that it makes enemies of all its neighbors and wastes its one diplo slot on, like, Brandenburg or Pomearnia.
Whenever Commonwealth manages not to mess up diplomacy, it goes nom nom on Russia, Hungary, Bohemia and sometimes even Ottomans.

 

[mag_zbc]

While Bulgaria and Anatolia is good clay to have, I would first focus on taking land in trade nodes that can transfer to Baltic Sea