EU4, No Mapchanges and Whys.

[Johan]

I just wanted to post this, so you have one place to complain about it, and one person to blame. (Please treat my content designers nicely, its not their decision & they joined us in the last 6 months)

There are several reasons why we do not plan to spend more time adding to the map.

Save-game compatibility. This is a fairly big complaint we get at every update, how people's games and campaigns get ruined. This is a significant cost, and a major factor in people leaving eu4, due to their campaigns permanently destroyed.

Performance . Each province that is added, adds several NxN factors to a lot of calculations, and after 8 years of optimization of the game, there is simply no way to add more provinces without permanently hurting performance. Leviathan already took us past the point of no return when it comes to performance. In hindsight, we should have kept as maximum province count at <3000, and made it more even around the world, and kept adjusting borders of them.

Multiple Pass AlreadyAll of the world have had at least 1 major pass at map updates post release, and while some places could be better, that will always be the case, as each year we get better and better at improving the map. We have plans to add content and flavor to at least three more major regions of the world, but if we keep adding to the map, we'll create a bigger and bigger imbalance.


This is by far the longest supported game in the history of Paradox. I did patch Eu2 for almost 6 years, and CK2 had content and updates released for almost 7 years after its launch. We are now at 8 years since the original EU4 release, and we plan to continue to support this further.

I have previously mentioned why I do not want to add more major systems to EU4, as the game has grown very bloated over the last few years, and needs bugfixing, polish, balancing, AI to catch up to use the mechanics, etc... We'll add more flavor and content during that time period of course, but it will be with a careful look at what it will negatively impact the player experience.

Next week @Ogele will talk about the only african country that survived the Victoria time period, and another nation, but before the end of the month I will write a large development diary on all the balancing we are doing for 1.32 and the AI improvements that is happening.

Speaking of AI.. @Gnivom , who worked on Rights of Man, Mandate of Heaven and Cradle of Civilization, joined Tinto earlier this summer, and is now working with the AI for us..

Cheers, and remember to be angry with me if you have to, not my team members!

 

[ArtFart]

Thanks for the explanation Johan. But surely the small amount of people ignoring a warning (about save game compatibility) shouldn't ruin it for everyone else. I can see a lot more people leaving about this decision than people leaving because their save game broke.

Also

Next week @Ogele will talk about the only african country that survived the Victoria time period, and another nation, but before the end of the month I will write a large development diary on all the balancing we are doing for 1.32 and the AI improvements that is happening.

Ethiopia hype?

 

[Ninking]

Very reasonable reasons for moving away from adding new provinces to a game that's 55 dog years old Good luck with 1.32 anyhow!

 

[Sidolowka]

Performance . Each province that is added, adds several NxN factors to a lot of calculations, and after 8 years of optimization of the game, there is simply no way to add more provinces without permanently hurting performance. Leviathan already took us past the point of no return when it comes to performance.

Now this makes more sense than the save-game reason.

The game does run noticeably worse than pre-Leviathan, and while I amn't sure how much of the newfound lag is cause by the large amount of provinces added to North America and Polynesia, it certainly wouldn't help to add more.

In hindsight, we should have kept as maximum province count at <3000, and made it more even around the world, and kept adjusting borders of them.

Fully agreed. Regions like the HRE, North America and Japan are extremely bloated with provinces, while South America, Africa, and China are woefully underdeveloped. But that's in hindsight though.

One question though, does this mean that there's no chance of there being border/province shape changes in the future either? Like how Bessarabia/Akkerman was changed to hug the Danube instead of cutting through it.

 

[WindingArc]

Performance . Each province that is added, adds several NxN factors to a lot of calculations, and after 8 years of optimization of the game, there is simply no way to add more provinces without permanently hurting performance. Leviathan already took us past the point of no return when it comes to performance. In hindsight, we should have kept as maximum province count at <3000, and made it more even around the world, and kept adjusting borders of them.

Do wasteland provinces contribute to this problem, or only passable provinces and sea zones? Two of the most requested new map features are impassable zones in the Andes and West Africa.

Has there been any consideration given to deleting existing provinces, either to improve performance or to increase province counts in other parts of the map?
Sydney, Australia, for example, is roughly the same size as London even though it was uncolonized for most of EU4's time period. I'm sure there are other areas of the map where EU4's team was a little overzealous in adding provinces.

 

[Thorum]

- I also agree the reasoning makes sense

- most complaints are about the Andes, and I believe it would both make South America a better experience (both for colonisers to the east and Inca to the west), and lessen the blow of this announcement. No new provinces, but only inaccessible areas.

EDIT : I'm not alone with that idea, aparantly

 

[Johan]

One question though, does this mean that there's no chance of there being border/province shape changes in the future either? Like how Bessarabia/Akkerman was changed to hug the Danube instead of cutting through it.

future (1.33) border changes could be possible.. its the adding new ones that is a problem.

 

[SPAMbuca]

It's consistant with what you said indeed. I recall you said making major overhauls for the game in general would be tricky because of it. It's also the longest game supported by far and there's still a desire to obviously change the game for the better. Can we add all the little hints together and perhaps hope for an EU5 just like people hoped for Vicky 3 for years?

 

[Sidolowka]

future (1.33) border changes could be possible.. its the adding new ones that is a problem.

Great, I could see a lot of problems being fixed simply by changing the shape of provinces (and wastelands).

One of the worst offenders being the Carpathian ranges creating an oddly phallic border with Romania.

 

[Metz]

@Johan


For South America, a compromise can be achieved. Delete some of the provinces in Chile, Peru, and Colombia and make a large Andes Mountain Range impassible province. The extra provinces can be distributed to South Africa, Brazil, and the Baltics. These should be around 25 recycled provinces. Some Canadian provinces could be consolidated and be used in Central Asia and Ukraine.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

future (1.33) border changes could be possible.. its the adding new ones that is a problem.

What about adding new TAGs in existing provinces?

 

[Johan]

What about adding new TAGs in existing provinces?

thats not a major problem, but we have to be very careful with each we add.

 

[Ninking]

future (1.33) border changes could be possible.. its the adding new ones that is a problem.

I can just imagine the anger of whoever is a fan of a region which loses provinces in order for another region to get more

 

[Metz]

Also, does the game calculate impassable terrain provinces the same as regular provinces?

 

[Johan]

@Johan


For South America, a compromise can be achieved. Delete some of the provinces in Chile, Peru, and Colombia and make a large Andes Mountain Range impassible province. The extra provinces can be distributed to South Africa, Brazil, and the Baltics. These should be around 25 recycled provinces. Some Canadian provinces could be consolidated and be used in Central Asia and Ukraine.

Well, that causes a fair bit of problems, as it would break savegames for some.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

In hindsight, we should have kept as maximum province count at <3000, and made it more even around the world, and kept adjusting borders of them.

In that case is it possible to then remove some provinces and tags to make room for others in order to make it more evenly distributed? (I'm looking at the abysmall difference between the detail in North and South America).

There are places that are so unecessarily dense (is there a need for the island of Java to be 19 provinces? Does Quebec really need to be 23 provinces?) and others that are incredibly sparse (Anywhere in Africa or South America), and even if removing from one continent to add in another is strictly forbiden then there are still improvements that could be made in the same region/state, some province additions to specific locations were quite poorly made (like adding the fishing-town of Aveiro to the Beiras state, while missing the one with the most strategic, economic and political importance of the state: Minho).

There is already a precedent set for Tags being removed, doing the same with provinces shouldn't be that controversial.

 

[Johan]

Also, does the game calculate impassable terrain provinces the same as regular provinces?

for most stuff yes

 

[SPAMbuca]

thats not a major problem, but we have to be very careful with each we add.

Wouldn't adding more tags indirectly drag down performance? It's more armies, more overall development (as all tags dev up unless told otherwise), etc that will be added to the game and not just another color.

 

[Ninking]

EU4 could do like most maps and just remove New Zeeland completely for room for some new provinces

 

[Johan]

Wouldn't adding more tags indirectly drag down performance? It's more armies, more overall development (as all tags dev up unless told otherwise), etc that will be added to the game and not just another color.

tags that exists on the map yes. but its less of an impact than a province.