EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

[neondt]

Can you add primary tags for the Karen and Kachin cultures? It would be interesting if they could have their own tag when they successfully revolt? The primary tag for Karen culture could be called Kawthoolei.

I'm not really sure what to do with the Karen culture. They're just not politically relevant in our period, at least as far as I'm aware. Kawthoolei feels much too modern to be a tag in EU4. Most likely they'll remain as they are now.

 

[ImAdrian]

I'm not really sure what to do with the Karen culture.

yea... we ain't sure either...

 

[brantodb01]

Certainly

Is the AI likely to follow these missions?
Them not doing so feels a bit disappointing but if they do having colonialism spawn in SEA could break European games

 

[IshOfTheWoods]

I recently read the Art of Not Being Governed, and it certainly got me thinking about lots of interesting gameplay for SEA. Neondt, I'd be curious if you've read it and if it has had any influence on these designs?

One thing specifically I'd like to see, is something representing the relationship between the hill tribes and the sedentary agricultural states (the main topic of the book). It seems like the hill tribes could fit well in the reworked estate system. Can you comment at all on that, or any other new estates for SEA?

I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.

I feel like this is a limitation of EU4. Culture and culture groups are used to guide the politics of both the AI and player, but often times the relationship is reversed. Politics influences the formation of what we now think of as age-old cultures. I suspect you might have similar thoughts, given your quoting of "natural" Vietnamese expansion.

 

[Quimera]

@neondt so good so far look the new update, but a question: it won't be harder to achieve the achievements like Eat your greens and the first Taungu Empire with many new provinces in the region? I love the map reworks but I will like to know if there will be mission trees to achieve without exploits these old achievements in SEA.

 

[JKiller96]

One last question, will there be any Champa content? It's a really interesting country with a unique culture, religion, etc. It would be interesting to see some sort of mission tree concerning a Cham resurgence.

 

[Wolfrex]

Still no plans for a Ming mission tree. During the development of the Manchu patch I considered whether it would be worthwhile to create one, but ultimately decided against it in favour of allocating time for the Korean mission tree. My reasoning was that there's very little design space for Ming missions because they're already so incredibly large and they have Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right from the start. I stand by that reasoning. In addition, it's only me on content design right now and if a Ming mission tree is going to be made it should ideally be made by someone who actually enjoys playing as Ming - I do not.

Oh, come on. Where is the confrontation between eunuchs and generals-standard practice in the Chinese court? Where is the succession of dynasties, namely dynasties? Why does Korea have completely non-historical missions, they have majors, but the Ming Empire-the top 1 power-does not? It's just not fair.

The heavenly mandate is INCREDIBLY inconvenient, because tributaries are allied with each other and with free countries, and they are not much use. And when you take away the heavenly mandate, the tributaries remain with the old owner of the heavenly mandate. In fact, the celestial mandate should have its own special kind of subjects with its own special ways of interacting. And at the moment, ordinary hordes can do exactly the same and it is only their whim, the owner of the heavenly mandate - the need.

So after all, the sky mandate also has a stub of -1000 if there is no land border. EVEN by sea, you can't make a tributary. How then the Ming Empire has vassals in Oceania at the start is unclear from the point of view of the game's mechanics. The heavenly mandate used to be completely useless to anyone, today not too much has changed. The point is NOT that it decreased because of the border with free countries, but in the inconvenience of the tributaries themselves, who can not even be punished for disobedience, who may be allies of your enemy and fight for him, and to return the tributary back its status is possible only in a separate world for a fee of 200 diplomatic points.

 

[neondt]

I recently read the Art of Not Being Governed, and it certainly got me thinking about lots of interesting gameplay for SEA. Neondt, I'd be curious if you've read it and if it has had any influence on these designs?

One thing specifically I'd like to see, is something representing the relationship between the hill tribes and the sedentary agricultural states (the main topic of the book). It seems like the hill tribes could fit well in the reworked estate system. Can you comment at all on that, or any other new estates for SEA?



I feel like this is a limitation of EU4. Culture and culture groups are used to guide the politics of both the AI and player, but often times the relationship is reversed. Politics influences the formation of what we now think of as age-old cultures. I suspect you might have similar thoughts, given your quoting of "natural" Vietnamese expansion.

I've never encountered that book before, but I will absolutely check it out. If you've seen my Dithmarschen mission tree you'll know I have an interest in anarchist literature. Would be interesting to represent ungoverned people in a less "memey" way. There won't be any new estates coming in the 1.31 update, but I can certainly see this becoming a government reform and/or a national idea set.

And yes culture groups in EU4 are messy and arbitrary. They're an eclectic mix of gameplay and historical considerations, bound by a very binary system. It's unfortunately just the nature of the mechanics and I don't see a change coming any time soon.

One last question, will there be any Champa content? It's a really interesting country with a unique culture, religion, etc. It would be interesting to see some sort of mission tree concerning a Cham resurgence.

There will probably be some Champa content. Haven't written it yet but I'd like to create a small mission tree for them at least.

 

[Canute VII]

We've already got the pirates in So and Palembang. I'm always a fan of pirates (I designed the feature after all) but I don't want to overload the world with them.

Sure, sure. These exist at game start, but in mid game they are likely already gone (if not played by a human). Smth for mid to late game would be nice.

It could be something simple like a vietnamese mission to have a certain privateer share in the south china node or to hire (and fire) a chinese merc company or.... both. Then a pirate tags spawns on one of the small chinese islands (and ofc a player has the option to take over).

Or a special trade policy that spawns pirate vassals on uncolonized single-province islands.

Smth simple enough that an AI would be able to attain it.

 

[lilunxm12]

Still no plans for a Ming mission tree. During the development of the Manchu patch I considered whether it would be worthwhile to create one, but ultimately decided against it in favour of allocating time for the Korean mission tree. My reasoning was that there's very little design space for Ming missions because they're already so incredibly large and they have Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right from the start. I stand by that reasoning. In addition, it's only me on content design right now and if a Ming mission tree is going to be made it should ideally be made by someone who actually enjoys playing as Ming - I do not.

I can understand your reluctance but please at least add some content for Chinese culture. For a starter, could be mission tree and formable chinese empire for the broke off states after now almost gurrenteed Ming mingsplosion.

 

[AFKaiser]

Oh, come on. Where is the confrontation between eunuchs and generals-standard practice in the Chinese court? Where is the succession of dynasties, namely dynasties? Why does Korea have completely non-historical missions, they have majors, but the Ming Empire-the top 1 power-does not? It's just not fair.

The heavenly mandate is INCREDIBLY inconvenient, because tributaries are allied with each other and with free countries, and they are not much use. And when you take away the heavenly mandate, the tributaries remain with the old owner of the heavenly mandate. In fact, the celestial mandate should have its own special kind of subjects with its own special ways of interacting. And at the moment, ordinary hordes can do exactly the same and it is only their whim, the owner of the heavenly mandate - the need.

Totally agree, even just a -1000 modifier for making an alliance/tributary that has its capital in the chinese superregion (without being the Emperor) would help. And Ming could have just 4 or 5 missions similar to the Missions Expanded mod: Hire advisor X, get a bit of mandate, etc. without any permaclaims, so just for internal management to counter their superior starting position. This way it would be even fun to play ming

 

[Quimera]

Oh, come on. Where is the confrontation between eunuchs and generals-standard practice in the Chinese court? Where is the succession of dynasties, namely dynasties? Why does Korea have completely non-historical missions, they have majors, but the Ming Empire-the top 1 power-does not? It's just not fair.

Sadly EU4 is not about "people" and dynasties, that is why I have high hopes to Imperator, "perfectly" balance along with characters and nations interactions and highest possibilities.

Sadly this more about balance about Ming, they start already so powerful because historically accurate, no problem there, but the AI in a lot of my campaigns they always are stables and powerful, with new missions they will be more powerful, but I will like to see them with few minor missions for the country that keep the MoH like -0,05 autonomy, diplomatic slots or reputation, 5% recovery morale speed, -10% liberty desire in subjects, etc.

 

[ImAdrian]

Just a minor suggestion on the side: please don't underestimate the importance of adding some fun achievements along the way!
A lot of players (myself included) like to start ironman games with an achievement as goal. So please don't be shy and add as many as possible

 

[klingonadmiral]

Firstly, HELL YEAH finally SEA gets its much-needed rework. can't wait for next week to see how much of the uncolonized territory has been filled it.

Some comments though:

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities

I hope this means the development malus for tropical provinces will be scrapped. It makes little sense when by the mid-late game Dhaka and Ayutthaya had swollen to about a million inhabitants each, larger than any city in Europe.

I'm glad that the number of tags in Indochina hasn't been increased by too much, as the region is already a bit of an AE hell.

 

[Weyird]

Oh horray. I'm glad you revealed where the next patch will be focused so early, and I'm glad it's SE Asia. I like playing in the area.
I assume this'll be a free content patch between DLC, right?

 

[TheIronRelic]

This is awesome. I love to see some updates for South East Asia. Just some questions. Maybe we will get a disaster for Majapahit so Sunda can actually not be instantly killed.

(1) Will there be any updates to the SE-Asian colonization game, so it is more historical, rather than just be either Europeans are unable to touch the region beyond colonized provinces or they blob all the way into Thailand.

(2) Will there be any rework of how religion works and spreads in SE-asia?

 

[Quimera]

to about a million inhabitants each, larger than any city in Europe.

Paris and London already had more population than that.

@ImAdrian yes, pls but just avoid to create new achievements with the idea and the shake of a punch and memes. We prefer alt-history.

 

[Me_]

They are

Any plans to split the Animist religion into two religions? It is quite weird that Asian and South American nations share the same religion.

 

[Kienose]

I think that the Province named Sip Et is incorrect. It is incorrect folklore etymology that the name was Sip Et but misread as Roi Et.

The province name should be Roi Et, according to nowadays historian consensus.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Paris and London already had more population than that.

London 1700: ~600,000

Paris 1700: ~515,000

Konstantiniyye 1700: ~700,000

Rice is pretty OP.