EU4 - Development Diary - 6th of October 2020

EU4 - Development Diary - 6th of October 2020

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EarlKonrad

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Their fleets can also be very helpful in wartime.
No. CNs build predominantly Light Ships, which are garbage in fights past the first 50 years. Moreover, each CN work independently from one another and each CN sends their fleet peace meal.

So in reality, the only time that CN fleets help is when you already have naval dominance to begin with or your opponent doesn't have a proper fleet. If you try to fight someone that do have a proper fleet be prepared for your side to lose hundreds of ships and give your opponent free WS because the AI is dumber than a brick when it comes to fleets.
 
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will lightship increase their firepower and combat quality? because for minor nations with few sailors that aren't in some sea zone will be in a disadvantage against major powers that can afford to invest a lot in heavy ships, because of galleys outside the Mediterranean and some sea zones, little matter...
 

Katsue

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Were all of those 135 capital ships, though? I.e. ships which would be considered heavies in game.
My understanding is that they were all considered capital ships at the time, and in-game the lighter ships would be considered obsolete Heavy ships. There's an argument that the 50 gun ships could be considered Great Frigates in-game, though.
 
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Very happy that you guys are taking a look at the navy, imo it has been the weakest part of the game for a long time but these changes sound great to me, especially having separate categories for admirals and generals as it is now I extremely rarely get admirals since it ain't worth having 1 less general. Anyways thanks for the Dev diaries and communication it really does alot for me personally to know what's happening =)
 
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Fluffy_Fishy

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Would you update other ideas and missions to give more marines as well? Venetian missions give 5% which is pitifully low for a merchant republic. Moreover I think merchant republics should get an extra free naval leader.
The Venetian military relied heavily on the Fanti da Mar/Schiavoni depending on the period in game but typically speaking the regiment was not only the first modern understanding of marine as amphibious infantry but also the first permanent standing army regiment in Europe since the ancient era. They also tended to make up around 40-60% of the total military force at the Venetians had at their disposal both at peace and wartime, not the pitiful handful of units the game mechanics allow for, they were also typically far better fighters than the janissary troops they most often faced, making the whole 10% shock damage taken a bit weird considering they were for the most part powerful shock troops armed with a arquebus/musket, 2 pistols, a basket hilt sword and a yagatan long knife.

Heavies shouldn't be able to stand up to galleys in internal seas until 17th century at earliest. There is a reason why even Spain and Portugal used galleys in Mediterranean.
Heavy galley use in the Mediterranean wasn't about standing up to "heavies" They were just far more useful in the heavily coastal area thanks to the variable wind conditions. The idea that a galley is stronger than a heavy until 17th century is just kind of weird, especially considering that galleys were lightly built with a few guns running down the middle of the ship and only fired once or twice per engagement while the majority of the fighting was done in boarding action. The much lower hull form of the galley also made it quite vulnerable to the much higher built heavy style round ships. Not forgetting the original heavy warships of the era were originally designed by Genoa and Venice to enhance fleet abilities of their largely galley based navies. Large ships were then organised into composite navies and the galleys would help maneuver the heavier warships into the most favourable winds and positioning, enhacing their firepower. Galleys were also considerably useful in peacetime patrolling against pirates and corsairs which were common in the Mediterranean basin, it was far more the need to deal with these outlaw threats that elongated the lifespan of galley use than their wartime fighting abilities against what is obviously a superior fighting ship in the "heavy".

Good point. According to Wikipedia.
By 1759 the Royal Navy had expanded to 71,000 personnel and 275 ships in commission, with another 82 under ordinance.
So much for 100k Sailors...
Royal navy isn't the entire use of sailors though, as I posted above the larger ships and fleet sizes of the Napoleonic era boosted Britain to having roughly 400-500 serving ships, most of which much larger than the 7 years period, while also supporting a massive merchant navy who themselves would require sailors, of which the Royal Navy dipped into frequently during wartime. Even considering the maritime fleet alone during the Napoleonic period of 19,000-22,000 ships this more than easily meets the whole 100k sailors on its own, while the Royal Navy would be manned and staffed by a strong 40,000 just to man half of their 3rd rates (roughly the number that would be active at any one time) Let alone the huge frigate fleet and larger battle ships.
 
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Stratagyfan101

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This doesn't solve the primary problem with Navies. The primary problem with navies is that they are a waste of ducats when it is easier and more cost effective to just walk to my destination. The only time navies are needed is for colonies and islands.
 
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One navy change I’d love to see is the removal of transport ships, it’s so annoying to have half your navy consist of just transports when soldiers could just hop on light or heavy ships
 
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Xinkc

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A cannon regiment also costs 1000 manpower, and im pretty sure there aren't 1000 men worth of gunners in every artillery regiment.

Its a balance compromise. Since Marines now coat sailors, a Marine regiment was extremely more costly than a Ship and the sailor pool was being used almost exclusively for Marines.
Who actually uses marines though? Most nations require investing in a subpar TC building or going full Naval ideas to get them.

I guess the hegamony will be change to represent the larger sailer costs
Probably. I'd be surprised if the achievement for 500 heavies isn't changed too. Makes me glad I've already got it.

Exactly. And it makes the 500 heavies achievement a little more challenging at least. Although idk how you can get a 1000 heavies for Naval Hegemony now.
It's 250 heavies for naval hegemony.

And why should I bother with navies now that they are more expensive both in terms of sailors and ducats?
This right here is the big question. Outside of the leader pool split, which it's about time that happened, I'm seeing a lot of balance changes with very little added use/purpose. Yeah, they'll help with CN liberty desire, but that wasn't difficult to handle to begin with.

Eh are CNs even worth it since you guys nerfed tariffs anyway
I miss tariffs and the UI not lying to me by randomly halving the income. Awful design choice. Such a stupid bandage to a minor problem.
 
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Less2

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So combat width is down to 0.5 for galleys. Meaning that you can have 6 galleys against 1 heavy.
AKA in 1444 you have 72 cannons for galleys against 40 cannons of your heavy. This doesn't seem balanced
Or am I forgetting something?
Yeah, 6 galleys per heavy will absolutely annihilate heavies even outside of inland seas.

6 War Galleys = 90 cannons and 60 hull
1 Carrack = 50 cannons and 25 hull.

6 Archipelago Frigates = 216 cannons and 144 hull
1 Threedecker = 120 cannons and 60 hull.

Keep in mind that galleys also have better combat ability bonus availability, including +15% that everyone can have basically immediately. So realistically we should be saying the war galleys have at least 103.5 cannons in this comparison.
 
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Were all of those 135 capital ships, though? I.e. ships which would be considered heavies in game.

In any case it shows that I was correct in my point about 500 heavies doomstacks not being realistic, even if my numbers were a bit off as I were doing them from memory.
My understanding is that they were all considered capital ships at the time, and in-game the lighter ships would be considered obsolete Heavy ships. There's an argument that the 50 gun ships could be considered Great Frigates in-game, though.
I only included the largest ships of the line, the post now includes total navy ship numbers for context, 125/388, 135/469 and 135/459 for each of the years. The 50s were included because they include the last few 50 gun ships of the line like HMS Leopard, I'm not too sure where the 24lb razee and frigates fall in the data, I'd assume they pick up the numbers in the 50 gun ships over the later period in the chart. Even so they make fairly limited numbers within the data as a whole, presented to show that the royal navy had 125-35 "Heavy" style ships in the period. At least what I'd consider heavy ships, which is main line fighting battleships, although mainly focus on the 64s+. It also shows the RN expansion into heavier 74s over the two decades or so in accordance to Naval inflation of the time period.
 
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I do think that EUIV's naval gameplay would benefit from differentiating ship types ala Imperator Rome. Adding in larger "rates" of ships and more variability between nimble ships that can "flank" and slow powerful ships that could stand in the line of battle can make for more interesting combat than just "have as many galleys/heavies as possible" and "stack naval modifiers" game that naval combat is otherwise.
 
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So what do you get from "Leaders without upkeep" bonuses now? Always general slots, or it depends?
How will the 25 Power Projection bonus work: +1 Land Leader, +1 Naval Leader, or one of each?
Based on the screenshot, it looks like leader upkeep affects two pools of leaders - naval and army - equally and simultaneously. An England with Feudalism embraced and less than 25 power projection had a naval leader cap of 2.

Were all of those 135 capital ships, though? I.e. ships which would be considered heavies in game.

In any case it shows that I was correct in my point about 500 heavies doomstacks not being realistic, even if my numbers were a bit off as I were doing them from memory.
My understanding is that they were all considered capital ships at the time, and in-game the lighter ships would be considered obsolete Heavy ships. There's an argument that the 50 gun ships could be considered Great Frigates in-game, though.
That's correct:

It would be nice if the naval hegemony could be changed to require a particular number of sailors, cannons, or both, rather than a particular number of heavy ships.
 
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A cannon regiment also costs 1000 manpower, and im pretty sure there aren't 1000 men worth of gunners in every artillery regiment.

Its a balance compromise. Since Marines now coat sailors, a Marine regiment was extremely more costly than a Ship and the sailor pool was being used almost exclusively for Marines.
That certainly has not been true of my games. I only used Marines in one game, but really do not see why I should trouble with them rather than regular armies, especially if it means not being able to support as large a fleet as I could otherwise.
 
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Exactly. And it makes the 500 heavies achievement a little more challenging at least. Although idk how you can get a 1000 heavies for Naval Hegemony now.
Naval hegemony only requires 250 heavies. It has never been 1000 heavies, other than the very first DD, in which the forum rightfully told Johan and Groogy they were cray-cray.
 
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Froonk

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The Venetian military relied heavily on the Fanti da Mar/Schiavoni depending on the period in game but typically speaking the regiment was not only the first modern understanding of marine as amphibious infantry but also the first permanent standing army regiment in Europe since the ancient era. They also tended to make up around 40-60% of the total military force at the Venetians had at their disposal both at peace and wartime, not the pitiful handful of units the game mechanics allow for, they were also typically far better fighters than the janissary troops they most often faced, making the whole 10% shock damage taken a bit weird considering they were for the most part powerful shock troops armed with a arquebus/musket, 2 pistols, a basket hilt sword and a yagatan long knife.
I do know of Venetian history but thank you for elaboration nonetheless.

Heavy galley use in the Mediterranean wasn't about standing up to "heavies" They were just far more useful in the heavily coastal area thanks to the variable wind conditions. The idea that a galley is stronger than a heavy until 17th century is just kind of weird, especially considering that galleys were lightly built with a few guns running down the middle of the ship and only fired once or twice per engagement while the majority of the fighting was done in boarding action. The much lower hull form of the galley also made it quite vulnerable to the much higher built heavy style round ships. Not forgetting the original heavy warships of the era were originally designed by Genoa and Venice to enhance fleet abilities of their largely galley based navies. Large ships were then organised into composite navies and the galleys would help maneuver the heavier warships into the most favourable winds and positioning, enhacing their firepower. Galleys were also considerably useful in peacetime patrolling against pirates and corsairs which were common in the Mediterranean basin, it was far more the need to deal with these outlaw threats that elongated the lifespan of galley use than their wartime fighting abilities against what is obviously a superior fighting ship in the "heavy".
This is not true, while amphibious capacities of galleys were definitely their main advantage and a reason for their widespread use, another reason for using during age of gunpowder was because galley fleets (which were also more expensive to maintain) had superior capacity in naval warfare before mass produced iron cannons become available in early 17th century. Simply put, a galley fleet was able to bear more cannon towards a singular direction with much faster speed and agility. When you consider that roundships had 8 to 12 cannons in their broadside in 16th century, on much longer platform, several galleys next to each other had more firepower on their bows.

Also while galley's low frame is a disadvantage in boarding, it's actually an advantage when it comes to sinking roundships because they were able to shoot their cannons at more critical water level of roundships. Another point to consider is because galleys could shoot their cannons towards the direction they were moving towards, regardless of wind conditions, their formation was much more offensive while roundships are necessarily defensive because of their inability to chase and fire at the same time. Genoese and Venetians (and indeed Ottomans and Spanish) used "heavies", that is roundships, in Mediterranean but only as support vessels because of their cargo space and their ability to defend naval areas as floating fortresses. Roundships only started to surpass galleys in combat ability because a galley was limited in its cannon amount due to its inherent limitations in size because of being powered by oarsmen. While galleys could only carry up to 7 or 9 cannons on their bows roundships started to carry upwards of 30 cannons on their broadside thus surpassed galleys in combat ability. Galleys became obsolete because they couldn't become bigger without becoming too slow and too expensive in terms of manpower.

In short, galleys were the most effective ships in utilising the limited amount of cannons the states at the time could produce, they became obsolete when cannons could be mass produced thus naval warfare became more about having as many cannons on ships as possible. A good comparison on land to how galley warfare was fought in 16th century is line battles of 18th century, which became obsolete because of higher firepower of breachloaded rifles and machine guns.

If you do have an interest in the warfare of the area and capabilities of galleys, I thoroughly recommend Guilmartin's book "Gunpowder and galleys".
 
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Katsue

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I only included the largest ships of the line, the post now includes total navy ship numbers for context, 125/388, 135/469 and 135/459 for each of the years. The 50s were included because they include the last few 50 gun ships of the line like HMS Leopard, I'm not too sure where the 24lb razee and frigates fall in the data, I'd assume they pick up the numbers in the 50 gun ships over the later period in the chart. Even so they make fairly limited numbers within the data as a whole, presented to show that the royal navy had 125-35 "Heavy" style ships in the period. At least what I'd consider heavy ships, which is main line fighting battleships, although mainly focus on the 64s+. It also shows the RN expansion into heavier 74s over the two decades or so in accordance to Naval inflation of the time period.
My knowledge of naval warfare in the period is almost totally confined to my reading of the Patrick O'Brian novels, but it wouldn't surprise me if the heavy frigates weren't included in those data. My point is more that what the Royal Navy classified as a ship of the line isn't necessarily what the game would classify as a Heavy ship.

For instance, I think a heavy frigate of War of 1812 vintage would have annihilated any galley vessel of the period in a single ship contest unless it was becalmed - which is certainly not the case in-game.
 
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