EU4 - Development Diary - 6th of October 2020

EU4 - Development Diary - 6th of October 2020

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Sapa Inca

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Good changes.

If now is possible for Colonial Nations declare independence wars if they have a better fleet but a inferior army, would be interesting if AI becomes good enough to manage ships to block army transports across the ocean, faster ships in late game can help this but AI needs learn to move their fleets better.
 
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Albert I

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...Tell that to pirates who used smaller ships to take over larger ones with great success through this entire era. You're thinking about sinking them, but instead think about boarding larger harder to manoeuvre ships and simply killing the crews. As fir firepower ships like Carracks and Caravels didn't have much of that.
the pirates then and now, goes against merchant ships not against military ships. Also it's not only the size, it's the crew, the captain...
The galleys can fight against small ships, the problem with the heavy ships, it's their higher freeboard, it's more difficult to boarding, with this, difference, the usual it's a change from boarding to sinking.
The galleys are obsolete, with this more powerful ships.
 
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Doldenberg

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Finally, we also made it impossible for nations to slave raid on any territory that they have a truce with, so now you can actually protect yourself efficiently against the raiders.
This seems somewhat half thought out? Like, first, is there a "Anti-Raid"-Casus Belli? Second, does this mean that even if I win a war against my raiding target and take something, I can't raid them for the duration of the truce?

If not, I would therefore suggest an Anti-Raid-Casus Belli with a specific demand where you aren't able to raid for some years.
 
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Froonk

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I can also strongly recommend this book to those wanting to understand naval warfare of the era, it is however by no means the most detailed source available because its a book written to be accessible for the keen reader, there are plenty more intricate and fine detailed sources on the topic, especially those written as PhD theses or papers opening up state archives and recordings to those who don't have access to them. The best books on galleys proper I've found are pretty much unanimously written in Italian with some good sources in Spanish, although fewer and further between. Gunpowder and Galleys is still a fantastic opening book and I'd still recommend it to people of all levels of knowledge.
I disagree, there is no better source for galleys in era of gunpowder, which is the period that concerns EU4, than this book. At least not in English. Although I cannot verify for Italian and Spanish, I have my doubts any more thorough work can exists for this particular configuration. Galleys in general perhaps but we are talking about galleys in gunpowder era, which is what concerns us here because we are talking about specific comparisons between round, square-rigged sailships and lateen-rigged galleys.

Galleys under oar really weren't very fast vessels, with a typical cruising speed of around 5kn with most finding a sprint of 7 and in some cases 8kn which could be held by experienced and well exercised and provisioned oarsmen for about 15-20 minutes, at which point the crew would be exhausted. The idea that they are somehow faster than their sailing counterparts is kind of ridiculous @Titanius Puffin has gone into a very nice basic understanding of sailing from a modern perspective and during the galley based era combative round ships would at least match the sprint speed of the average galley for roughly 220 degrees to the wind, although they might struggle to keep up with the smaller more lightly armed variants.
Galleys under oar, especially because of their lateen-rigging were faster vessels in Mediterranean. Under good wind conditions square-rigged vessels are obviously better under sails but this is a condition that didn't exist commonly or reliably in Mediterranean. That's why lateen-rigged low sailing vessels like polacca and xebecs were used even after galleys became uncommon. It's irrelevant minutae to compare square-rigged vessels under perfect wind conditions to galleys under oars, because it's not important here in the particular context we are dealing with, which is the 16th and 17th century naval warfare involving fleets.

I don't understand why you are trying to sell the Galleass as a defensive style ship, they were used combatively in a very similar way to tanks in ww2 era. they were very much offensive breakthrough ships meant for breaking formations of the enemy for smaller ships to then take advantage of this aggressive disruption of the line with their role most fitting their aggressive shock value. The galleass also has very little to do with large merchant galleys and we much more a modern take on the research and restoration of technical skills used to build and power what is effectively a resurrection of the quinquereme and while some technical skills came from the practical skills needed to build effective large merchant galleys it was much more to do with ancient shipbuilding theory being expanded and experimented on in the era.
These are all irrelevant, because for one, galleasses saw very limited use. We are to look at practical examples here and galleasses were present in few of them. Most important one involving war fleets on both sides is Lepanto and here their slow speed and low manoeuvrability was noted by the captains and they were fittingly used defensively as anchors for the galley formations. All 6 of the galleasses in Lepanto were refitted merchant vessels and all 6 were similarly fitted with high forecastles, their design was clearly meant as defensive platforms to prevent boarding and they were used very much like roundships as opposed to low forecastle Venetian galleys that focused on speed, manoeuvrability with lower firepower.

Looking at perhaps the most famous galley battle in history, Lepanto you can quite clearly see the Christian fleet, especially the Spanish had taken significant numbers of large sailing warships, mostly galleons with the intent on using them as they proved their effective combative ability at battles such as Djerba and Preveza despite for various reasons the Christian combined fleets still losing, denying the intent of use of these large powerful vessels isn't something that really makes sense for some of the most major engagements of the 16th century or the transition to sail warfare over the period and Preveza especially proves the point you made wrong about the Iberians not using their ships in the Mediterranean. Lepanto as an example doesn't really show the vast numbers of fighting sail ships because they didn't take part in the engagement due to wind conditions and the nature of the battle taking place in the geographic area it did but they were still a hugely significant part of the fleet.
This is completely ignoring the facts on the ground and is actually patently false. There were no Spanish galleons present in Lepanto, moreover of all the galleys on Christian side in Lepanto, more than half, including all Galleasses were Venetian, most of rest was Genoese either under a Genoese patrician's ownership or leased to Spain and remainder were a mixed from Napoli and Papal states. Spanish didn't bring any sailing vessels to Lepanto, most importantly even if they wanted they couldn't bring anything but sailing ships because they didn't have a galley fleet. Spanish did use sailing vessels in Tunis at aftermath of Lepanto, exactly as mentioned as support and siege vessels. If only warships available to Spain was square-rigged sailships and if they were to be a boon rather than an obstacle why wouldn't have they brought them to Lepanto, especially when a counter-invasion was expected? Galley war fleets fought in formations, usually with up to 60 ships in a single cluster with a centre and two wings. A square-rigger sailship has no place in this formation because of type of warfare being fought. Holy League side was also much more densely manned by actual soldiers on galleys, the galleys also had their spurs cut before battle meaning that they fully anticipated, expected and planned around boarding.

On the comments made about the polacca and xebec again show some real lack of understanding, the high period of the xebec saw some real monstrously sized vessels of that type sailing the Mediterranean some of which fielding around 50 guns during the early to mid 18th century easily capable of attacking the typical 12 pounder frigates of their contemporary patrol navies and swift enough to avoid larger ships, especially into the wind. The polacca on the other hand was not a low sided ship at all, the entire point of the polacca was that it was built up high for a ship its size purely to deter boarding and make it easy for a merchant crew to fend off much larger pirate/corsair crews.
This is again irrelevant minutiae, while this is correct in 18th century it is irrelevant to comparison between galleys and sailships. First of all Barbary states and general pirates in the area started to switch from light galleys to sailing vessels beginning from 17th century, they were already using low profile sailing vessels with lateen riggings sometimes supported by oars. Polacca are high for galleys but they are low for square-rigged trade vessels that were in line of development that borne from cogs or carracks. This is exactly because galleys could no longer carry enough cannons to to match merchant vessels. Secondly, raids and skirmishes involving a few vessels and outright naval battles between fleets cannot be compared. For one the smaller skirmishes necessarily favour roundships, especially because corsairs intend to board and take over the ship, secondly merchant vessels do not want to engage corsairs proactively or offensively so the disadvantages of roundships in formation or in offensive were irrelevant to them. This is opposite to galley formations which being offensive, able to force engagements or otherwise move with a strategical or tactical military objective. Circumstances, aims, advantages and disadvantages are all different when few corsair ships engage few merchant vessels. A galley war fleet wants to engage and destroy enemy fleets to prevent reinforcements and transfer troops for coastal sieges.

Round ships weren't really more open ended than their oared contrasting navy vessels, the very prevalence of the Lantern galley proves this, huge by design and the centre point of many fleets, again something that contrasted into the ancient world where you'd see much more common use of the hexareme and even octaremes as capital ships. Rounded ships were in no way more open ended, design principles still severely limited the scope of what you could achieve and was very limited by technological progress of the era. The round ship eventually won out in the main theatre of being much more weatherly and being much more easily fitted with heavier and later double hulled systems, this however wasn't really something that helped much in sheltered areas, proving difficult to sail in sheltered coastlines and not really available for much more expansive military duties until there were significant improvements to rigging available.
Roundships were more open-ended in design size, because they weren't limited by geometric constraints of a galley. A galley is a strict balancing act because it's oar powered. If you had read the book I suggested as you claim to have, this is discussed exhaustively there. For a galley to increase in size to accommodate more cannons it also needs more oarsmen, and to accommodate more oarsmen it needs more cargo space, which limits its strategic scope and speed under oars. A galley essentially has a very short limit on how large it can be because linear increase in its size requires exponential increase in oarsmen and oarsmen supplies. Moreover because of positioning of oarsmen and generaly vulnerability of the crew they cannot use broadside cannons. Lanternas weren't necessarily larger, they were important because they were commandships with specific functions. Ancient world galley warfare is irrelevant to us here as cannons doesn't become involved. A galley was limited in design space, because becoming too large limited its strategic and tactical use.

Galleys weren't just made outdated by the reasons you have suggested either, the situational advantages of sailing warships vs oared is one that comes into an interesting question outside of the Mediterranean, you see some interesting examples happening in the Caribbean during the mid to late colonial period again used for the same reason they were maintained within the Mediterranean, even the young USA had a small galley collection at one point, this also extends to the popularity of half galleys and archipelago sloops, with smaller warships of the 17th and 18th century fighting with square rigs but also adopting oars in a hybrid set up to give them greater advantage in coast and island hopping in areas with high rates of raiding or maritime theft.

Taking the example of movement away from Galleys during the Cretan war again this doesn't hold up to evidence, as the Venetian navy did exercise building a number of large sailing warships, even dedicated major sheds in the northwest part of the Venetian arsenal to these ships which had originally been set up to build galleass but became the core of the hybrid fleet. The Cretan war did however see a shift of Venice moving more aligned towards typical European naval thought after the successes of the Giove Fulminante class warship, despite this its still important to stress that Venice like other navies still didn't stop producing galleys in the 18th century, something that would prove incredibly useful to the Venetian fleet in the last 3 wars fought before the dissolution of the republic, the 1st Morean war, 2nd Morean war and the Venetian Tunisian war all of which involved heavy reliance on galleys in the conflicts. You even see this example from the records of ships captured from Venice by France in 1797 with 24 galleys, 17 Xebecs and 13 Felluca falling into french hands, this also doesn't count the numbers stationed at Corfu which fled the port escaping capture which would likely estimate another 8-10 Galleys, 10-12 xebecs, and 5-8 Felluca.
Here again there is the fundamental misunderstanding of naval skirmishes between few merchant ships, merchant vessels or patrols against corsairs or shallows. Galleys retained their fundamental utility as amphibious vessels of shallow draft with exceptional manoeuvrability without dependence on wind conditions, thus they were used for patrols or amphibious operations. Much like how boats with oars are still used by coastguards today, however to say a modern destroy didn't outclass a galley would be insanity. Fundamental change that happened was while in initial stages of maritime gunpowder warfare galleys presented a superior firepower ability because of their agility and independence of wind which put roundships to secondary and supportive roles, due to limited amount of guns available to be outfitted to ships, amphibious nature of warfare and outcome being decided by boarding, galleys became obsolete because they were much more limited in size which they already reached in capacity in 16th century. A galley had to sacrifice a lot in its strategic and tactical mobility to become larger, and even then there was a very short limit because of dependence on increasing amount of oarsmen and their cargo space. This wasn't an issue when the amount of cannons that could be outfitted to ships was limited and thus the multi-purpose utility and manoeuvrability of galleys was more valuable, however as mass cannon production became available the galleys became limited only to their role as amphibious vessels.

Simply put, while both Venice and Ottomans still used galleys as their primary war vessels and sail ships in supportive roles, because of changes in circumstances and realisations during the 2 decades war they both increased the number of their sailships and reduced number of their oared vessels, by the end of the war both Venice and Ottomans became primarily sailship naval powers, with oared vessels entirely reduced to auxiliary roles in their perspective capacity (ability to land with oars, independence from wind and all else).

Another point made about the high number of cannons puts no effort into judging effectiveness of guns, with the Venetian 74 and 76 gun ships Corona and Leon Trionfante being no doubt the most heavily armed warships of the 18th century, despite being launched in 1711 and 1716 respectively. However on a more standardised point of costing, producing, equipping manning and maintaining the large heavy fleets of the late 18th and early 19th century was vastly more costly during say the Napoleonic era than the massive fleet eras of say the height of the Galley in the 16th century or the massive fleet battles of say the Anglo Dutch wars during the 17th century, something that becomes most evident with merchant shipping costs as the European navies with large expensive and expansive fleets of ships of the line and frigates etc being able to transport goods at much lower prices due to the safety ensured by these expensive warships compared to the much cheaper galley centred fleets of say the Italian nations.
This was always a factor, the reason why Venice was able to have so large fleets was because they already had a large merchant fleet and general dependency on ships so they had the necessary infrastructure and personnel, as well as necessity and incentive to maintain large fleets. Of course the balance between cost, speed, seaworthiness and maintenance of ships is always important so you didn't want to make massive floating cities with 1000 cannons but the point is a galley's margin for adjustment is narrower and sacrifices much more because of dependence on oarsmen. This is exactly the point here, a galley has a lot of strategic and tactical cost to make adjustments for firepower and durability while sailships are less limited. Specifically, square-rigged sailships are also less limited than lateen-rigged ones when it comes to size, but as you move from oars to lateen-rigs to square-rigs you also depend more on wind conditions. Wind conditions which are predictable and consistent in oceans but unpredictable and limited in closed seas.

Since this became a rather confused discussion, I will reiterate my initial point. I have said in 15th and 16th centuries square-rigged sailships would be no match for galleys in open warfare between war fleets. Because a galley war fleet would simply be able to present more guns, have more manoeuvrability and no dependence on wind and faster movement under suboptimal wind conditions which was the norm in Mediterranean. Advantage of the galley wasn't that it was cheaper, because it wasn't, but rather it was a multipurpose vessel with superior agility to put fewer number of guns to use. When roundship development and methods of cannon founding developed further the sailing ships outclassed galleys in outright naval warfare because they could become bigger, higher and carry more cannons making them very resistant to warfare methods of very costly galley fleets in more cost effective ways. Simply put galleys became impractical because they couldn't become larger to compete with higher drafts and more cannons of sailships especially ships of the line without becoming completely useless in strategic and tactical capacity. Corsairs and patrols have a more dynamic relation to this, as they were not war fleets but rather had specific dynamics and purposes that were not military in nature but economic. Relatively lower xebecs and polaccas were used by both merchants and corsairs because their lateen-rigged sails offered more versatility with wind conditions and their lower drafts meant they could operate closer to shallows.

This didn't mean galleys became useless, it rather meant that they became left behind in the naval war fleet arms race. They still had their purpose to be used, and they could still operate in smaller skirmishes in particular circumstances. Battles between entire war fleets and skirmishes between corsairs and merchants, duties of naval patrols or amphibious operations need to be considered separately. This is something that won't be represented in EU4 naval battles, as in EU4 this would just be privateering in or guarding a trade node.

Simply, my argument was that galleys should always be superior to "heavies" in closed-seas, until when they become obsolete and by which point they are represented by lateen-rigged low-draft sailships anyway. I actually think that "xebecs" and "archipelago frigates" should not be superior, but only evenly matched if even that to "heavies" in closed-seas. The superiority in closed seas should be galley's up to tech 21 but from there on they should not be. I would support a general reduction of cannon count of last three types of "galleys" to make them matched against heavies rather than superior.

Here, as a closing example, a Maltese galley squadron capturing an Ottoman two-decked sailship:


I also apologise for the wall of text.
 
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Titanius Puffin

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So the width of the oars isn't negotiable on a galley. Stowing oars is not feasible in a rowing competition, and it wouldn't be in galley combat either. The term 'dead-in-the-water' would apply. Stopping invites being rammed, boarded, or shot - or all three.
Modern ships aren't the same as historical ones, there were plenty of space to stow oars on galleys heck there's plenty of space to stow oars in rowboats and there's even a manoeuvre where you remove the oars and hold them in one hand floating in the water beside the boat,....
I think we agree, at least when it comes to stowing oars.
I'm not saying you can't stow oars, or pull them out of the way. I'm saying that a captain of a galley would (likely) want the oars out most of the time when fighting in earnest. Even modest rowing helps you move, and the easiest target is the slowest. (Edit: or doesn't move at all).

The context was that an earlier post suggested massed galley batteries were especially effective by putting galleys line abreast - the prow artillery of each gallery trained on the same target. I was pointing out this was a tricky tactic because of the oars - and could significantly hamper the galleys movement.
I think the massed-galley tactic would also require remarkable coordination once a battle became more chaotic - and chaos seems a frequent element even in land engagements.
The greater argument seemed to be that galleys could equal - and exceed - the 'broadside' of large sailing ships, and I'm not very sympathetic to that conclusion.

This picture is kind of bad but it's of a model at the national maritime museum of Sweden (worked there a s tour guide for several years) showing that battle and the formations being used.
Scale_model_of_the_Battle_of_Svensksund,_July_9,_1790_-_Marinmuseum,_Karlskrona,_Sweden_-_DSC0...JPG
I suspect, the image you've supplied suffers from similar the issues to the ones I've supplied - they're imperfect representations of naval combat and manoeuvre.
One of the imperfections of static maps, or modelled examples, is that they don't show movement, and they often neglect to depict accidents, impediments, and unforeseen outcomes. There's a bias towards showing order; particularly in modelling because showing off the impressive ships is one of the goals, and depicting a mess detracts from it.
This makes battle manoeuvres, and formations, seem easier than they necessarily are.

When reading accounts of individual ships during a naval battle, I've tended to get perspectives showing more chaos.
(edited for clarity, and increased subjectivity - this is all my opinion after all).
 
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Froonk

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The context was that an earlier post suggested massed galley batteries were especially effective by putting galleys line abreast - the prow artillery of each gallery trained on the same target. I was pointing out this was a tricky tactic because of the oars - and could significantly hamper the galleys movement.
I think the massed-galley tactic would also require remarkable coordination once a battle became more chaotic - and chaos seems a frequent element even in land engagements.
The greater argument seemed to be that galleys could equal - and exceed - the 'broadside' of large sailing ships, and I'm not very sympathetic to that conclusion.
There is nothing to count sympathies on, because conclusion is already a bygone one as it was put to test in 16th century. It does require a greater coordination, which has its limits, but this coordination was achieved. Specifically, coordination was handled by flagships and signal ships which draw the lines. Do study Battle of Lepanto as this is exactly what came to pass, up to 180 ships were side by side with 60 ships on each wings and another 60 in centre. They were used much like line infantry is used on land in early 18th century, a coordinated line that moved forward, shot their guns in close range and engaged in melee. Moreover galleys were put to test against galleons in Preveza which is when Venetians abandoned the idea of using them proactively altogether until much later when galleys became outclassed by sailships and became too impractical to compete with them.

It's a bit like how professional armies of 18th centuries with drilled and trained soldiers with battlefield experience would fight more coordinated battles, while WW1 was much more chaotic but nonetheless despite the lack of coordination and drill amongst WW1 soldiers, because land battles became about employing the available firepower, a mass of drafted infantrymen were more effective than drilled offensive attacks of line infantry.
 

swagmeister

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This doesn't solve the primary problem with Navies. The primary problem with navies is that they are a waste of ducats when it is easier and more cost effective to just walk to my destination. The only time navies are needed is for colonies and islands.
Having naval dominace with enough transports to move your armies around is far superior to just neglecting the navy entirely. My concern with these balance changes is that they feel they need to add another burden on the early game economy which the AI just can't handle right now. The AI will take thousands of gold out in loans to hire mercs to try and beat a player tag as long as they have even one province unoccupied, and they still feel the need to fill their buiding slots with regiment camps and shipyards to increase that financial strain on their poor tuning.
 
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swagmeister

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Having to build ships just to keep your vassals liberty desire down will be annoying.
It depends on whether they take the opportunity to increase subject liberty desire further again. If they balance it well it won't be an issue for tags large enough to have colonial subjects.
 

Titanius Puffin

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Having to build ships just to keep your vassals liberty desire down will be annoying.
If you have overseas vassals (colonial nations), then building large trade fleets to get more value out of them hits two birds with one stone.
Chances are though that most land-locked nations with large armies (and many vassals) won't notice the difference.
 

Mr. Wiggles

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A cannon regiment also costs 1000 manpower, and im pretty sure there aren't 1000 men worth of gunners in every artillery regiment.

Its a balance compromise. Since Marines now coat sailors, a Marine regiment was extremely more costly than a Ship and the sailor pool was being used almost exclusively for Marines.
About the Artillery Regiment, It could be easily explained with all the logistic needed for efficiently running a heavy battery. Maybe they should be more costly to limit their use by mid late game?
 
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Mr. Wiggles

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This makes people who build a navy and those that don't light years apart. Naval combat should be addressed by making it more accessible not less so.
Having a good navy has always been a huge and expensive undertaking, the UK has been lucky in being an island nation, by concentrating their efforts on building a strong navy they hit two pidgeons with one stone. The french had to split their efforts in building both a navy and a powerful army
 
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TheDungen

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the pirates then and now, goes against merchant ships not against military ships. Also it's not only the size, it's the crew, the captain...
The galleys can fight against small ships, the problem with the heavy ships, it's their higher freeboard, it's more difficult to boarding, with this, difference, the usual it's a change from boarding to sinking.
The galleys are obsolete, with this more powerful ships.
I just showed a picture of a model of a battle where galleys utterly obliterated the "more powerful ships".
 
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Froonk

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There a few more like this.
What is this battle supposed to prove? Portuguese also had oared vessels here, 25 of them in fact. It's just a superior force in manpower and equipment defeating a weaker one. Moreover, conflicts between Ottomans and Portuguese in Indian ocean is one of economic viability, Portuguese were simply too costly to remove from the area as they were good at building and defending fortifications with their ships. Combined with the monsoons of the area that meant every siege was on a time table before it would be broken by weather, they could only be removed by land practically. Which meant Ottomans could only remove Portuguese from Red Sea and Yemen. The fact that Portuguese, which represented at the time a state of art construction of sail ships and naval gunners decided to use oared vessels like fustas in the area shows that they thought galleys were necessary.

Nor would it even prove anything if 3 or 5 sailships defeated 10-15 galleys in Indian sea, because it's specifics of seamanship and gunnership that matters. Portuguese were good sailors and they often also defeated larger European forces in skirmishes that used similar ships. Later on Dutch also often defeated larger forces thanks to their experienced and high quality sailors and ships. In about same era in early 1600s, Maltese corsairs managed to capture an Ottoman sailship but failed to capture a similarly armed English one.
 
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Sete

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And the oared vessels did not even partake in the battle being decided by the Carracks and caravels.

I disagree with your opinion that galleys are superior to roundships.

Now I can also say that your examples given do not matter due to the specifics of the gunnery and seamanship.

To further prove my point the Mamluks (with Venetian help) and Ottomans even built Carracks to counter the Portuguese.
 
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Froonk

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And the oared vessels did not even partake in the battle being decided by the Carracks and caravels.

I disagree with your opinion that galleys are superior to roundships.

Now I can also say that your examples given do not matter due to the specifics of the gunnery and seamanship.

To further prove my point the Mamluks (with Venetian help) and Ottomans even built Carracks to counter the Portuguese.
Galleys are superior to roundships in conditions which are advantageous to galleys. That is low or unpredictable wind, shallow waters and nearby coasts that allow beaching with galleys but not with roundships. These are present in Mediterranean, especially Eastern and Southern Mediterranean, Red Sea, Persian Gulf and parts of East Africa and Southeast Asia. Furthermore, galley's strengths are most obvious when there is a numerical superiority enough to overwhelm sailships, that is large naval battles rather than smaller skirmishes. That is because there were a limited number of cannons available to be outfitted to ships, you won't be able to have 60+ roundships equipped with 1800 cannons in total (12 on each broadside, 2 bow guns and 2 stern guns) while you can have 200+ galleys equipped with 1000 cannons used more effectively. All the cannons in the world won't be of any use if they aren't facing the correct target and correct time. Moreover galley oarsmen if they are freemen also can fight in boarding action. These conditions also depend on aims and circumstances of the battle itself, naval battles between 100+ craft with strategic and tactical military objectives. Primary example of this is Battle of Preveza.


There is no need for some sort of mysticism as if it's magic, the configuration is rather simple one. Both are floating wooden crafts equipped with cannons and sailors, in conditions which favour square-rigging and high profile, I.E conditions of stable and predictable wind conditions, few roundships able to turn their broadsides and launch cannon attacks and defend from boarding has the advantage against similarly low number of galleys. However, because ships cannot sail sideways, they cannot shoot their broadside cannons if they have to give chase, but only bow cannons which were present in earlier sailships. Nor can square-rigged vessels manoeuvre with effectiveness to counter-act galley offensives. Galleys meanwhile can row to chase with low or no wind, or even against wind, especially through shallows, they present their bow guns with much greater agility in any direction, and focus them towards one ship or another. They can also much more easily shoot at waterline of roundships or close in to board when possible. A roundship is then a better defensive vessel in skirmishes, as well as a better cargoship and a more manpower efficient one, also able to enforce blockades, latter of which was a primary Portuguese goal in Yemen and Oman.

It's true that Ottomans built roundships, even galleons, to deal with Portuguese in Indian sea. However this is because galleys aren't ocean-crossing vessels and sailships have much larger cargo. Ottomans were supplying men and armaments to various rulers in Southeast Asia, such as Aceh, across the ocean. So they had to deal with Portuguese patrols in Indian ocean, something that they cannot do with galleys. Aside from wikipedia battles, there also were back and forth privateer and corsair activity in Indian sea, some of which were conducted by smaller galley squadrons against Portuguese patrols, especially around Yemen and Aceh. Ottomans themselves started to adopt round sailships even in Mediterranean in second half of 17th century. So I am not here to argue some sort of constant superiority of galleys but circumstantial superiority during a specific period.

There is also other advantages of galleys, which are hard to represent in EU4 battles but nonetheless can be abstracted as a general superiority in closed seas. This is their roles as amphibious vessels, able to quickly beach or take off from shallows and coasts. For example a way galleys were used was by beaching them stern first to coasts and using them as coastal batteries. In EU4 galleys already have less hull strength and their advantage in closed-seas comes from a multiplier to their cannons, which is again a decent abstraction to represent their greater agility and offensive line formation engagements.

Of course later in timeline, starting from early 17th century, advancements in shipbuilding and metallurgy allowed sailships to further develop as ships of the line, which lead to galley formations becoming outclassed in firepower and boarding actions become unfeasible. This was already becoming a factor in Lepanto, where the large Galleasses and general firepower superiority of Holy League proved decisive in formations. EU4 represents galleys with lateen-rigged hybrid vessels like Xebecs or Archipelago frigates in later techs already so the galleys become obsolete anyway. I also said above that I think square-rigged sailships should become evenly matched in closed-seas against later "galleys", so a fleet of heavies should be able to defeat "galleys" if they would have an advantage otherwise after tech 21 or so.
 
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Grand_Strategy_Gamer

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@Johan, I thought I'd share some quick details on how you might work in medium ships and one more batch of new ships for all ship types to allow players to truly re-enact Trafalgar, where two-decker ships of the line predominated. At that battle medium ships would be represented by ships like the HMS Colossus, a 74-gun 3rd-rate ship-of-the-line. In fact, ~75% of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars consisted of this kind of ship!

Here's what things would look like at game start:
Ship (Sailors/engagement width)
Heavy (Early Heavy Carrack): 300/3
Medium (Early Carrack): 200/2
Light (Barque): 75/1
Galley (Galley): 60/1 (I remain to be convinced on shrinking galley combat width)
Transport (Cog): 50/1

Early Carrack (Heavy ship would be renamed Early Heavy Carrack)
24 cannon
14 hull
6 tactical speed
8 strategic speed
2 Engagement Width
Cost: 30 Ducats

Medium ships would cost 30 ducats and essentially be a smaller, faster, more cost-effective warship that's great for global naval warfare. The cost would be that filling up your force limit with medium ships would give you a faster but less potent fleet. To fit them in, I changed some of the later names of light, medium and heavy ships to fit with the British ship ranking system. The new rung of ships would be added starting at Tech 28 (Hemmema (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemmema)), with new versions of light ships, medium ships, heavy ships and transports being available at Tech 29. A super-potent "Great Frigate" would be added at Tech 29 as well and have an engagement width of 1.5.

Light Ships (Sailors)
i. Barque (75)
ii. Caravel (94)
iii. Early Frigate (113)
iv. Frigate (150)
v. Sixth Rate (188) (HMS Lyme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme-class_frigate)
vi. Large Sixth Rate (225)
vii. Fifth Rate (248)
viii. Great Frigate (450) (USS Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution)


Medium Ships (Sailors)
i. Early Carrack (200)
ii. Carrack (250)
iii. Galleon (300)
iv. War Galleon (400)
v. Fourth Rate (500)
vi. Third Rate (600) (HMS Terrible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Terrible_(1747))
vii. Large Third Rate (660) (Example: HMS Colossus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Colossus_(1803))/Cassard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Cassard_(1803)))


Heavy Ships (Sailors)
i. Early Heavy Carrack (300)
ii. Heavy Carrack (375)
iii. Heavy Galleon (450)
iv. Heavy War Galleon (600)
v. Early First Rate (750)
vi. First Rate (900) (HMS Victory/Rayo)
vii. Large First Rate (990) (Principe de Asturias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Battle_of_Trafalgar))

Galleys (Sailors)
i. Galley (60)
ii. War Galley (75)
iii. Galleass (90)
iv. Galiot (120)
v. Chebeck (150)
vi. Archipelago Frigate (180)
vii. Hemmema (198)

Transports (Sailors)
i. Cog (50)
ii. Flute (63)
iii. Brig (75)
iv. Merchantman (100)
v. Trabakul (125)
vi. East Indiaman (150)
vii. Large East Indiaman (165)
 

Balesir

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@Johan, I thought I'd share some quick details on how you might work in medium ships and one more batch of new ships for all ship types to allow players to truly re-enact Trafalgar, where two-decker ships of the line predominated. At that battle medium ships would be represented by ships like the HMS Colossus, a 74-gun 3rd-rate ship-of-the-line. In fact, ~75% of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars consisted of this kind of ship!
Yes, but:

i) Many of those two-decker ships were older ships that were still in service; the newer ships tended to carry more guns (which is the real differentiator, not the number of decks).

ii) The medium ships, as you present them, seem little different from the heavies, and don't have a distinct job to perform. They have the same crew per unit of engagement width, but the medium is strictly worse with fewer canons per engagement width for only a canon-proportional drop in cost. True, mediums have slightly more hit points per engagement width, but only just.

I'm afraid the result is that I don't see much use for these medium ships...
 
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TheDungen

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Galleys are superior to roundships in conditions which are advantageous to galleys. That is low or unpredictable wind, shallow waters and nearby coasts that allow beaching with galleys but not with roundships. These are present in Mediterranean, especially Eastern and Southern Mediterranean, Red Sea, Persian Gulf and parts of East Africa and Southeast Asia. Furthermore, galley's strengths are most obvious when there is a numerical superiority enough to overwhelm sailships, that is large naval battles rather than smaller skirmishes. That is because there were a limited number of cannons available to be outfitted to ships, you won't be able to have 60+ roundships equipped with 1800 cannons in total (12 on each broadside, 2 bow guns and 2 stern guns) while you can have 200+ galleys equipped with 1000 cannons used more effectively. All the cannons in the world won't be of any use if they aren't facing the correct target and correct time. Moreover galley oarsmen if they are freemen also can fight in boarding action. These conditions also depend on aims and circumstances of the battle itself, naval battles between 100+ craft with strategic and tactical military objectives. Primary example of this is Battle of Preveza.


There is no need for some sort of mysticism as if it's magic, the configuration is rather simple one. Both are floating wooden crafts equipped with cannons and sailors, in conditions which favour square-rigging and high profile, I.E conditions of stable and predictable wind conditions, few roundships able to turn their broadsides and launch cannon attacks and defend from boarding has the advantage against similarly low number of galleys. However, because ships cannot sail sideways, they cannot shoot their broadside cannons if they have to give chase, but only bow cannons which were present in earlier sailships. Nor can square-rigged vessels manoeuvre with effectiveness to counter-act galley offensives. Galleys meanwhile can row to chase with low or no wind, or even against wind, especially through shallows, they present their bow guns with much greater agility in any direction, and focus them towards one ship or another. They can also much more easily shoot at waterline of roundships or close in to board when possible. A roundship is then a better defensive vessel in skirmishes, as well as a better cargoship and a more manpower efficient one, also able to enforce blockades, latter of which was a primary Portuguese goal in Yemen and Oman.

It's true that Ottomans built roundships, even galleons, to deal with Portuguese in Indian sea. However this is because galleys aren't ocean-crossing vessels and sailships have much larger cargo. Ottomans were supplying men and armaments to various rulers in Southeast Asia, such as Aceh, across the ocean. So they had to deal with Portuguese patrols in Indian ocean, something that they cannot do with galleys. Aside from wikipedia battles, there also were back and forth privateer and corsair activity in Indian sea, some of which were conducted by smaller galley squadrons against Portuguese patrols, especially around Yemen and Aceh. Ottomans themselves started to adopt round sailships even in Mediterranean in second half of 17th century. So I am not here to argue some sort of constant superiority of galleys but circumstantial superiority during a specific period.

There is also other advantages of galleys, which are hard to represent in EU4 battles but nonetheless can be abstracted as a general superiority in closed seas. This is their roles as amphibious vessels, able to quickly beach or take off from shallows and coasts. For example a way galleys were used was by beaching them stern first to coasts and using them as coastal batteries. In EU4 galleys already have less hull strength and their advantage in closed-seas comes from a multiplier to their cannons, which is again a decent abstraction to represent their greater agility and offensive line formation engagements.

Of course later in timeline, starting from early 17th century, advancements in shipbuilding and metallurgy allowed sailships to further develop as ships of the line, which lead to galley formations becoming outclassed in firepower and boarding actions become unfeasible. This was already becoming a factor in Lepanto, where the large Galleasses and general firepower superiority of Holy League proved decisive in formations. EU4 represents galleys with lateen-rigged hybrid vessels like Xebecs or Archipelago frigates in later techs already so the galleys become obsolete anyway. I also said above that I think square-rigged sailships should become evenly matched in closed-seas against later "galleys", so a fleet of heavies should be able to defeat "galleys" if they would have an advantage otherwise after tech 21 or so.
Exactly Galleys are good when you are more limited by cannons than by manpower. They use a lot of manpower per cannon to make sure than cannon is utilized to it's greatest extent.
Galleons (and the like) are great when you have loads of cannons but not that much manpower (or in the case of the western powers abroad not that much manpower available locally).
 
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