EU4 - Development Diary - 22th of September

EU4 - Development Diary - 22th of September

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Ishmael_Dandalo

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archaeology can be surprisingly useful in figuring out ideas (or push come to shove, generic ideas still exist if nothing else can be found).
Are you aware if any of the new tags in North America are getting new ideas other than the Native ideas? If you can share, of course.
 
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Pirosmani99

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I really like the look of a lot of these changes, the way North America previously felt like terra nullius that was just there for Europeans to claim really bugged me. I feel like federations should be able to maintain themselves when they reform btw, either by integrating as a new form of republic (maybe similar to Switzerland) or by getting a new mechanic (literally a federation of indigenous nations with guns and banking).

Also, would like to see if anything similar is being added for South America - certainly some more Tupi nations are needed (with the possibility of a big Tupi Confederacy) and the Wayuu would be cool too at a minimum. I also feel like Inca should have more places to conquer, once they actually form (if you select the later start date at least) they basically can't see beyond their own borders. Irl each Sapa Inca had to conquer new lands so he'd have an estate to pass on to his descendants, because he and they were disinherited upon becoming emperor. So it would be cool to have something to represent that need for the Inca state to expand. They also desperately need their own government form (like with Russians, there should be a version shared between all small Andean monarchies at the start and then a unique version for whoever manages to eat up their neighbours and form Tawantinsayu). I've been considering how to mod this myself but it would be great if that region got a proper official update.
 
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Tarroque

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It's unusual even for games like this, I'm very happy to see that neglected areas like this are getting attention. :)
 
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Elkar

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Nice job improving NA region, I also did some work about it in my mod:
NA global.jpg


NA mississipi.png


but as a way to give more depth to the region, would it be possible to add two new religions?
-Kachina religion: for Pueblo people (Hopi, Zuni, Hopi-Tewa, and Keresan tribes, as well as in most Pueblo tribes in New Mexico).
-Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (S.E.C.C ): for Mississippian culture peoples.

I honestly think that to generalize totemism religion for all NA natives is not adequate.
 
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Evie HJ

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That's a neat looking mod. Only points I would raise is that Stadaconan accounting for both Stadacona and Osheaga is roughly equivalent to having one French tag that covers both Burgundy and France, and that second the Meskwaki starting location is just a big red warning sign.

Even the sources (websites that rarely if ever give any sort of scholarly source) that give them a Laurentian valley origin associate them with the regions of Ontario north-east of Lake Ontario, not the Laurentian mountains of western Quebec. Even that is a highly questionable call, because archaeology tells us the Saint Lawrence valley between Lake Ontario and Quebec was also part of the St Lawrence Iroquoian territory, and later Algonquin territory. Most scholarly sources I'm aware of assocate the Meskwaki's early EU IV era dwelling with the region of Detroit, which fits the known history and the archaeology much better (and is still, technically, the Saint-Lawrence-lower-Great-Lakes Valley)

Which is not to say they never lived in the Saint Lawrence lowlands, just that I would tend to associate the timing of their inhabiting that region with the time of the Central Algonquian's western migration (eg, from Ojibwe history), so long before EUI IV, rather than due to European colonial pressure in the 1600s (the colonial pressure would be what forced them from Detroit to Wisconsin).

More to the point, putting the Meskwaki where you have them means not having the Algonquin/Omamiwininiwak/Anicinape (distinct as one group within the broader Anishinabe grouping) at all (since the Meskwaki now hog their starting location), and that seems like a serious omission (likewise the Innu) given everyone else you do have there, and the relative importance of those two groups in North American history.

One of those days, I'll get around to having one of thse mods where I cut completely loose and show off what my idea of a North America with an unlimited tags and provinces budget looks like. Not suitable for the base game, but I will make it a mod one day.
 
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Elkar

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That's a neat looking mod. Only points I would raise is that Stadaconan accounting for both Stadacona and Osheaga is roughly equivalent to having one French tag that covers both Burgundy and France, and that second the Meskwaki starting location is just a big red warning sign.

Even the sources (websites that rarely if ever give any sort of scholarly source) that give them a Laurentian valley origin associate them with the regions of Ontario north-east of Lake Ontario, not the Laurentian mountains of western Quebec. Even that is a highly questionable call, because archaeology tells us the Saint Lawrence valley between Lake Ontario and Quebec was also part of the St Lawrence Iroquoian territory, and later Algonquin territory. Most scholarly sources I'm aware of assocate the Meskwaki's early EU IV era dwelling with the region of Detroit, which fits the known history and the archaeology much better (and is still, technically, the Saint-Lawrence-lower-Great-Lakes Valley)

Which is not to say they never lived in the Saint Lawrence lowlands, just that I would tend to associate the timing of their inhabiting that region with the time of the Central Algonquian's western migration (eg, from Ojibwe history), so long before EUI IV, rather than due to European colonial pressure in the 1600s (the colonial pressure would be what forced them from Detroit to Wisconsin).

More to the point, putting the Meskwaki where you have them means not having the Algonquin/Omamiwininiwak/Anicinape (distinct as one group within the broader Anishinabe grouping) at all (since the Meskwaki now hog their starting location), and that seems like a serious omission (likewise the Innu) given everyone else you do have there, and the relative importance of those two groups in North American history.

One of those days, I'll get around to having one of thse mods where I cut completely loose and show off what my idea of a North America with an unlimited tags and provinces budget looks like. Not suitable for the base game, but I will make it a mod one day.
First of all, thanks for your suggestions and all this interesting information. I really appreciate your interest in my mod and over all in accurate history.

I have researched a lot in order to try recreate how could NA political situation be in the 14th century, keep in mind that my mod is based on M&T mod which has a 1356 startdate.

About Stadacona, I tried to use native names for NA tribes (avoiding exonyms as much as possible) instead of how European called them. With Stadacona I'm refering all St. Lawrence Iroquoians, since St. Lawrence Iroquoians is an anchaeological name to refer to all Iroquoian speaking natives who lived around St. Lawrence river, I chosed to call them by one of their most important villages instead of something like "Saintlauretians".

Regarding the Meskwaki (it includes Sauk native too) starting location, it's difficult to say where they were around 1356 but what I found is:

"Historically the Meskwaki lived along the Saint Lawrence River in present-day Ontario, northeast of Lake Ontario. The tribe may have numbered as many as 10,000, but years of war with the Huron, whom French colonial agents supplied with arms, and exposure to new European infectious diseases reduced their numbers. In response to these pressures, the Meskwaki migrated west, first to present-day eastern Michigan in the area between Saginaw Bay and Detroit west of Lake Huron. Later they moved further west into what is now Wisconsin."

"The Sauk, an Algonquian languages people, are believed to have developed as a people along the St. Lawrence River. They were driven west by pressure from other tribes, especially the powerful Iroquois League or Haudenosaunee, which sought control over hunting grounds in the area. Some historians believe that the Sauk migrated to what is now eastern Michigan, where they settled around Saginaw Bay"

In other words, they moved because of Iroquois natives pressure which happened at the beggining of European contacts.

Of course, this kind of sources are not always reliable and it's difficult to place every tribe in their right place along the timeline but I did what I could alone in my free time.

Finally, as I said I'm very pleased to know people interested in the history of this amazing but many times forgotten region.

PS: about Osheaga, the only thing I've found is a Music and Arts Festival. If you have more data about it, I would like to know.
 
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Evie HJ

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It indeed is, and is generally proposed as a more accurate Kanien'ke:haka spelling of the name. Not perfect (it's not the Laurentian spelling), but likely closer than Hochelaga.

As to the Meskwaki: I've seen that Wikipedia and the New World Encyclopedia making that claim - in exactly the same language. In short, a copy-paste. Other sites, while they mention the (entirely plausible) Ontario/Saint Lawrence habitation fo the Meskawki, are careful not to give any time frame for when it happened - while some mention wars with "france and other tribes" in the same paragraph, they don't specify which wars pushed the Meskwaki from where. And since the Meskwaki were first encountered by the French around Detroit, clearly it's not actual war with the French that pushed them out of the Saint Lawrence - more likely war with other tribes. Which are not tied to French presence. Note also that NWE and Wiki don't cite any source for that claim.

And it doesn't stand up to historical examination. As I already noted, archaeology firmly place the Laurentians all the way to Lake Ontario. Later European records place the Algonquin in the same region, after the Iroquoian collapse. There is very little historical gap for the Meskwaki to have lived in the region. Also, Champlain documented his visits to the region - where he initiated French contacts with the Huron - extensively. Had the Meskwaki been there at the time in the kind of numbers cited, he would have been aware of them. He makes no mention of them.

More to the point, the Huron definitely lived at their first contact with the French in the area north of Lake Ontario. French can't have provided them with guns before their first contact, so for the Meskwaki to move to the Detroit area in response to Huron attacks would have involved them moving *through* the territory of the people attacking them (or through Haudenosaunee Territory, also unlikely to be tolerated) is not plausible.

The concept of the Meskwaki ocupying Ontario along the Saint Lawrence at the time of European contact or even in the last few centuries leading to it (Laurentian Iroquoian period) goes against the written records, against arcaheological record, and against logical examination. Absent any source cited in both of those editable encyclopedia, there appears little reason to believe it's part of oral tradition.

What's far more likely is that the dating of that part of the history in Wiki and NWE is off, and the movement refered to occured earlier, perhaps around the same time as the westward migration of the Anishinabe or in a similar period. as that migration is well documented in oral history across the Algonquian-speaking people. It may have been the result of the pressures of war (Natives were perfectly capable of attacking each others without any need for European incitement), but the idea that it happened in

Though really, the main point is that the Algonquin really should be there, and the Meswkakie right now extend in their historical homeland (and in lands that even the boldest claims about Meskwakie history don't support)
 
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macky527

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I have a couple of questions -
1) Will you split the trade nodes
2) What happens if you do not have Conquest of Paradise? Will the natives all start as OPMS or start with all their land
 
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Looks good! This is unrelated, but it's the only way for this to get a chance to reach you.

It would be awesome if it became possible to add in a "Feitoria" mechanic.

If you look at colonial empires like Portugal or The Netherlands, they made their fortunes off of tiny trade ports and stations dotted all along the coast of Africa and Asia.

Yet the current state of the game requires conventional conquest of major provinces to gain trade influence.

If there were to be a mechanic, similar to the trade post mechanic in CK2, that would allow for trading nations to exert influence without requiring conquest, the game could be more accurate to history, as well as enable more diverse gameplay.
 
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eastfrisia4evs

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One way to slow the European steam roll, more accurately reflect history and shift the mid and late game away from emphasis on interior provinces to the more realistic coastal game would be to split some of the east coast provinces. Manhattan should be three, if not four or five (Hudson Valley, Manhattan Island, East/West Long Island and Richmond). Particularly the islands. Make them work to get to the Iroquis/Huron. A similar argument can be made for the Tidewater region, but Nieuw-Amsterdam is the most obvious.
 
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Splitting Manhattan five way would involve some of the smallest provinces size in the game, and some of the specific ones you propose (eg, Manhattan Island, two Long Island provinces, Staten Island/Richmond County) would be Gibraltar sized or smaller. While that's not a completely unheard off province size, it's mostly only ever used for isolated islands - and Manhattan doesn't warrant that kind of detail. Richmond County/Staten Island are even worse, at half the size of Malta, already the smallest island in the game.

You could argue for a case for Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island (minus the boroughs) but any more than that is a major stretch.

The other problem with making people work to get to the Iroquois is that, in terms of inland colonization, they didn't really - and the Hudson valley is the case in point. Albany got its start at almost the same time as Manhattan, whereas the Hudson Valley in-between was only back-filled later.
 
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Splitting Manhattan five way would involve some of the smallest provinces size in the game, and some of the specific ones you propose (eg, Manhattan Island, two Long Island provinces, Staten Island/Richmond County) would be Gibraltar sized or smaller. While that's not a completely unheard off province size, it's mostly only ever used for isolated islands - and Manhattan doesn't warrant that kind of detail. Richmond County/Staten Island are even worse, at half the size of Malta, already the smallest island in the game.

You could argue for a case for Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island (minus the boroughs) but any more than that is a major stretch.

The other problem with making people work to get to the Iroquois is that, in terms of inland colonization, they didn't really - and the Hudson valley is the case in point. Albany got its start at almost the same time as Manhattan, whereas the Hudson Valley in-between was only back-filled later.
Well, just my two cents, but I always found it strange that there is no strait here, but instead there are these funny cuts through the peninsula. One or two straits would be good, I guess. You know better "how" to do this, so I don't even attempt to make a sketch.... :)

1601330676499.png
 
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I mean, that one *is* the historically accurate border - Virginia does own the southern tip of that peninsula (and did through all colonial time).

It would need to be split off as its own province if we were to have a strait, and again that would result in an extremely small (smaller than Gibraltar) province. So having a Virginia province extend on both sides of the strait is the best balance.
 
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The icon is problematic, but so would any other symbol we could use. It may happen some day, but I wouldn't personally see it as a good use of my time right now.
Considering you're not a paid employee or apparently receiving independent contractor pay expecting anything isn't reasonable. Given that this is a publicly traded company with extensive revenues and probably considerable profits, off of this product no less, this is at best a little tacky.

That said, this statement grossly oversimplifies things. Given your research into other facets, I'm pretty sure you understand why totem poles are problematic. They carry baggage by being over used as a generic cultural trope for natives in the Western fiction genre. Other symbols would be a gross over generalization, but they don't have the same history.
 
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I mean, that one *is* the historically accurate border - Virginia does own the southern tip of that peninsula (and did through all colonial time).
O.k. interesting border gore, then :)

On the other hand: gameplay > historical accuracy ;)
 

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On the other other hand, border gore is more of an aesthetic concern than a gameplay one, and those borders have broadly existed (though disputed at times and changing in the details of specific lines) from 1632 to 2020 and counting. They'e essentially the only European political arrangement the region has ever known. There's always been a distinct southern tip linked to Virginia, a central-western section linked to Maryland (and cutting the other two apart), and a north-eastern section varyingly claimed by New Netherland, New Sweden, New Netherland again, Pennsylvania and Delaware).

Fudging them a little would be one thing, but ignoring them entirely for the sake of aesthetics is not something I'd personally consider.
 
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Fudging them a little would be one thing, but ignoring them entirely for the sake of aesthetics is not something I'd personally consider
Oh, I'm certainly no map addict and I couldn't care less as to the exact historical borders as these were more often arbitrary than dictated by reason. But I think a good strait should never be omitted from the game if opportunity arises (same for islands btw), purely because they make army movement and interaction with ships more interesting. :)
 
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I mean, I'm all for straits when useful, but here the only reason to have them would be if we had a map that ignored historical borders entirely - all the good locations for straits are already adjacent.
 
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Little late to the party but I have some comments on the new world. I love playing as the North American tribes already (the masochist in me maybe?) One problem I regularly encounter is that the Europeans will take their sweet time visiting North America. I had games where I hit the late 1600s without having major European contact and it is a little game ruining. This is especially true if Iberia gets wrecked or if I play as a western tribe. As such, I would really love it if there was some form of "American Renaissance" that could trigger in the 1600's if the Europeans are being a little slow. Basically let the remaining natives "reform" without institutions or tech advancement and have them get feudalism. From there it is up to the player to advance through the actual Renaissance and catch up on the tech tree. Would make the sunset invasion a tiny bit more likely and make the push west take more than a few years in North America like it did in reality.

Then there is razing cities. The Europeans acted much like the Mongolian horde in the Americas. The "plunder of paradise" is a sorely missing mechanic and the mechanic already exists. Allowing conquistadors to raze like the horde mechanic, but only to the new world natives that have yet to westernize, would be appropriate and fairly historically accurate (probably fairly easy to implement too). Entire nations only went to the new world hoping/expecting to find gold and other plunder, it is a big part of why most North American colonies failed at first. It missing from the game has always made me a little sad.

The other major missing piece for the America's is the currently sad and incredibly short term plague mechanic. A bubble with a "you lose manpower/goods/taxes for a year" is a really bland way to represent the apocalyptic destruction European plagues caused in the America's. I would love to see a devastation "ticker" event where devastation increases by 1% per month in every province in the new world. You can spend monarch power to clear it like usual but the more you own when the plague ticks the more likely it is you will have 100% devastation provinces in time for the European conquistadors to waltz in and take over. Plus, if provinces do get developed more, there will be more plunder for the Europeans. Once again, it would only effect non-westernized provinces.

Those are my takes on the missing parts of the new world. I am sure there is a lot more but those things are the things I would expect to be fairly easy to implement and help make the playthrough in the new world more interesting overall.
 
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